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Switch to Forum Live View Now Its Ok To Use Church, in the States Debate?
5 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2009 - 9:05AM #41
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Back in post #11, I asked lulu what are these "Christian values" I keep hearing about. The phrase has returned, but I haven't yet seen an answer. Did I miss it?

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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5 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2009 - 11:43AM #42
Summer813
Posts: 325

Nope, I haven't seen that answered either. I sure wish someone would.

Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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5 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2009 - 6:45PM #43
Vistronic
Posts: 1,830

Hello Wiki covers it fairly well at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_values the latter part makes things clear, I hope this helps and now we can all immediately without delay adopt them right!? (: Cheers, Vis.


"The term Christian values historically refers to the values found in the teachings of Jesus.


The biblical teachings of Christ include:

  • worship of God: "You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind",
  • fidelity in marriage: "Whom God has joined together let no man put asunder"
  • renunciation of worldly goods: "Gather not your riches up upon this earth, for there your heart will be also",
  • renunciation of violence: "If a man strikes you on one cheek, turn the other cheek",
  • forgiveness of sins: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us",
  • unconditional love: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".

Christian values were summed up by Christ in Matthew 22: 37-39,



"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [1]



Today, in the 21st century, the phrases "Christian values" and family values are being used by conservative political groups to describe the following values:

  • the desirability of laws against same-sex marriage and support for laws against the acceptance of homosexuality into mainstream society
  • the desirability of reinstituting faculty-led prayer in taxpayer-funded schools"

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2009 - 7:35PM #44
amcolph
Posts: 17,363

Sep 2, 2009 -- 6:45PM, Vistronic wrote:


Hello Wiki covers it fairly well at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_values the latter part makes things clear, I hope this helps and now we can all immediately without delay adopt them right!? (: Cheers, Vis.


"The term Christian values historically refers to the values found in the teachings of Jesus.


The biblical teachings of Christ include:

  • worship of God: "You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind",
  • fidelity in marriage: "Whom God has joined together let no man put asunder"
  • renunciation of worldly goods: "Gather not your riches up upon this earth, for there your heart will be also",
  • renunciation of violence: "If a man strikes you on one cheek, turn the other cheek",
  • forgiveness of sins: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us",
  • unconditional love: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".

Christian values were summed up by Christ in Matthew 22: 37-39,



"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [1]



Today, in the 21st century, the phrases "Christian values" and family values are being used by conservative political groups to describe the following values:

  • the desirability of laws against same-sex marriage and support for laws against the acceptance of homosexuality into mainstream society
  • the desirability of reinstituting faculty-led prayer in taxpayer-funded schools"




To which we might add,


Support for a chauvinistic foreign policy, and


Devotion to unregulated corporate capitalism as the ideal economic system.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2009 - 9:25PM #45
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

vistronic,


Yeah, except....


Those are Jewish values. Jesus, as a Jew, was expressing teachings and values of the Jewish law and culture. Christians have adopted those values, but they are not Christian in origin or uniquely Christian in content. So I see no basis for calling them Christian values.


For that matter, some (not all) of those Jewish values were probably developed independently by virtually every civilization and culture, because they just make sense in terms of social stability.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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5 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2009 - 11:12AM #46
Vistronic
Posts: 1,830

Sep 2, 2009 -- 9:25PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


vistronic,


Yeah, except....


Those are Jewish values. Jesus, as a Jew, was expressing teachings and values of the Jewish law and culture. Christians have adopted those values, but they are not Christian in origin or uniquely Christian in content. So I see no basis for calling them Christian values.


For that matter, some (not all) of those Jewish values were probably developed independently by virtually every civilization and culture, because they just make sense in terms of social stability.




Well I agree Jesus or Yeshua being a Jew his teaching come from the Jewish tradition of course that makes sence. But much of his message such as the sermon on the mount, is bringing new light (on an old topic), I am not saying these are exclusive, I am not saying morals are exclusive to these, that said it does not diminish there power.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2009 - 11:56AM #47
TPaine
Posts: 9,288

Sep 2, 2009 -- 6:45PM, Vistronic wrote:


Hello Wiki covers it fairly well at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_values the latter part makes things clear, I hope this helps and now we can all immediately without delay adopt them right!? (: Cheers, Vis.



Wrong!! The 1st Amendment forbids the establishment of religion by the government. One religion cannot be favored over other religions. While Christians have every right to live by their ethical system, they have no right to use the law to force those who follow different religious systems to do so.


Sep 2, 2009 -- 6:45PM, Vistronic wrote:


"The term Christian values historically refers to the values found in the teachings of Jesus.


The biblical teachings of Christ include:

  • worship of God: "You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind",
  • fidelity in marriage: "Whom God has joined together let no man put asunder"
  • renunciation of worldly goods: "Gather not your riches up upon this earth, for there your heart will be also",
  • renunciation of violence: "If a man strikes you on one cheek, turn the other cheek",
  • forgiveness of sins: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us",
  • unconditional love: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".


As Heretic pointed out, Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic Rabbi. He preached Jewish law and values. It was the Christian churches that came up with the concept of "Christian Values" long after Jesus died.


Sep 2, 2009 -- 6:45PM, Vistronic wrote:


Christian values were summed up by Christ in Matthew 22: 37-39,



"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."




The Ethic of Reciprocity or what the Christians call the Golden Rule can be found in almost every religion and ethical system. It is not exclusive to Christianity. Some versions of the Ethic were written before the existence of Christianity some after. A list of the passages from various texts can be found here: www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm


Sep 2, 2009 -- 6:45PM, Vistronic wrote:


Today, in the 21st century, the phrases "Christian values" and family values are being used by conservative political groups to describe the following values:

  • the desirability of laws against same-sex marriage and support for laws against the acceptance of homosexuality into mainstream society
  • the desirability of reinstituting faculty-led prayer in taxpayer-funded schools"



amcolph added a couple of additions to your list and I'll add a couple more.


Invade a sovereign nation and assassinate it's ruler.


Disregard the Geneva Protocol and Hague Conventions both of which were signed by the United States.


Ignore the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, & 8th Amendments to our Constitution.


Establish a Christian Theocracy.


Sinclair Lewis had it right when he said, "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."

"It is always to be taken for granted, that those who oppose an equality of rights never mean the exclusion should take place on themselves." -- Thomas Paine: Dissertations on First Principles of Government (July 7, 1795)
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5 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2009 - 12:11PM #48
TPaine
Posts: 9,288

Sep 3, 2009 -- 11:12AM, Vistronic wrote:


Well I agree Jesus or Yeshua being a Jew his teaching come from the Jewish tradition of course that makes sence. But much of his message such as the sermon on the mount, is bringing new light (on an old topic), I am not saying these are exclusive, I am not saying morals are exclusive to these, that said it does not diminish there power.




The Sermon on the Mount is totally incompatable with the the greed of the unregulated capitalistic system supported by the neocons and Christian Right today. The reason we're having a health care debate in the country today is because the health insurance companies value money more than people's lives. I wonder what Jesus would say about that.


 

"It is always to be taken for granted, that those who oppose an equality of rights never mean the exclusion should take place on themselves." -- Thomas Paine: Dissertations on First Principles of Government (July 7, 1795)
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5 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2009 - 4:45PM #49
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

vistronic,


I agree--the spiritual teachings of Jesus (as distinct from the doctrinal statements attributed to him) are very powerful, and they do shed light on the meaning that lies under the letter of the law. I just see no reason to identify them as "Christian values." The teachings are marvelous. That designation, however, is misleading, as it falsely implies that non-Christians do not share such values.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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5 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2009 - 5:19PM #50
amcolph
Posts: 17,363

I think it is pretty clear that any time the phrase "Christian values" comes up in a public policy discussion these days it is the second list Vis posted that is being referred to.


 

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