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Switch to Forum Live View Now Its Ok To Use Church, in the States Debate?
5 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2009 - 9:02PM #1
lulu2
Posts: 454

I see so many attempts in threads  all over Bnet, stressing the use of Christian values to impassioned the Healthcare debate.


I find it rather convenient. Especially, when the questioner poses their question  more as a whipping tool to be used against Christianity, than a thoughtful tool for debate. To pick and choose what values you see fit to promote, to suit ones agenda, I find rather disengenuous . Now Gods virtues are being brought into the debate. Where are those ACLU members, when you need them, to make sure we arent mixing Church with State.


First I believe Healthcare is something we all WANT, I dont believe its a RIGHT.  When it comes to making decisions regarding the State, we are supposed to us the Constitution as our Guide. There , it only guarntees the freedom to pursue happiness. It never mentioned the right to have doctors when you want them.


As for the now allowed Christian view: Christ said "love you neighbor as yourself." That I would suggest would also include not bankrupting the nation for the wants of some. The other thing was, according to Christian thought, its our personal duty to help others. As far as I can remember, He asked us to render to Caesar the things that were his, and to God the things that were Gods. I do believe everyone who wants Healthcare should find it affordable to all. However to use Christ as your tool to get what you believe is a right, than I want that same right, to not allow my taxes to go against one of my Christian Values, the right to Life..ok its your turn.         

Without the Soul of Christ alive in us...we are nothing but empty shells...
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2009 - 9:08PM #2
mountain_man
Posts: 39,478

Aug 27, 2009 -- 9:02PM, lulu2 wrote:

I see so many attempts in threads  all over Bnet, stressing the use of Christian values to impassioned the Healthcare debate.....



I see nothing of the kind. I see self proclaimed christians being blasted on their hypocrisy. They claim "love thy neighbor" and all that "love" stuff, but fail to show it when it actually comes down to helping someone.


And so called "christian views" have always been allowed. What was not allowed, or fought against, was the IMPOSITION of those alleged values. I see that "family values" do not inclued helping families stay healthy.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2009 - 10:34PM #3
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Aug 27, 2009 -- 9:02PM, lulu2 wrote:


I see so many attempts in threads  all over Bnet, stressing the use of Christian values to impassioned the Healthcare debate.


I find it rather convenient. Especially, when the questioner poses their question  more as a whipping tool to be used against Christianity, than a thoughtful tool for debate. To pick and choose what values you see fit to promote, to suit ones agenda, I find rather disengenuous . Now Gods virtues are being brought into the debate. Where are those ACLU members, when you need them, to make sure we arent mixing Church with State.


First I believe Healthcare is something we all WANT, I dont believe its a RIGHT.  When it comes to making decisions regarding the State, we are supposed to us the Constitution as our Guide. There , it only guarntees the freedom to pursue happiness. It never mentioned the right to have doctors when you want them.


As for the now allowed Christian view: Christ said "love you neighbor as yourself." That I would suggest would also include not bankrupting the nation for the wants of some. The other thing was, according to Christian thought, its our personal duty to help others. As far as I can remember, He asked us to render to Caesar the things that were his, and to God the things that were Gods. I do believe everyone who wants Healthcare should find it affordable to all. However to use Christ as your tool to get what you believe is a right, than I want that same right, to not allow my taxes to go against one of my Christian Values, the right to Life..ok its your turn.         




From the Declaration of Independence, not the Consitution


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"


It is important to get the document correct. The Constitution is amended that no religion be established. I didn't attend law school but did study the Constitution at the college level five decades ago.


It is the Christian Right in this country who promote their personal agendas as far as I can see.


This not a Christian or religious board in any way.


I happen to be a very liberal Catholic Christian and I do believe I am my brother's keeper. If I can share through taxes better health care for those who need it I will do so. Certainly I don't expect all to agree with me. We are not a Christian nation. I grew up with Jewish kids, too; most Jewish people I know are rather liberal and generous. Where I live now outside Atlanta I also have Islamic, Buddhist and Hindu neighbors. I like the polyglot.


The Hyde Amendment prohibits use of Federal funds for abortion; no one is seeking to overturn it seriously.


What churches are you so opposed to?


 


 

discuss catholicism
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2009 - 11:21PM #4
Wmdkitty
Posts: 2,174

Health care is a RIGHT, as it is a part of "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." To deny health care based on income or illness is, plainly, unconstitutional. It has nothing to do with religion.


And, as Dave pointed out, nobody's "bashing" Christians, they're pointing out the glaring hypocrisy.

"The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse: You cannot post "Thou shalt not steal", Thou shalt not commit adultery" and "Thou shalt not lie" in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment." -- George Carlin
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2009 - 11:32PM #5
mountain_man
Posts: 39,478

Aug 27, 2009 -- 10:34PM, jane2 wrote:

....I happen to be a very liberal Catholic Christian and I do believe I am my brother's keeper. If I can share through taxes better health care for those who need it I will do so....



I am not my brothers keeper; I am my brothers brother. I am a brother to all humanity. If it costs me $10 a month more in taxes so that one of my less fortunate brothers can have health care... well then... that is a very small price to pay and I gladly pay it. I'm certain every Humanist, be they religious or secular, would say the same thing.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 28, 2009 - 12:51AM #6
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Aug 27, 2009 -- 11:32PM, mountain_man wrote:


Aug 27, 2009 -- 10:34PM, jane2 wrote:

....I happen to be a very liberal Catholic Christian and I do believe I am my brother's keeper. If I can share through taxes better health care for those who need it I will do so....



I am not my brothers keeper; I am my brothers brother. I am a brother to all humanity. If it costs me $10 a month more in taxes so that one of my less fortunate brothers can have health care... well then... that is a very small price to pay and I gladly pay it. I'm certain every Humanist, be they religious or secular, would say the same thing.




I think so............In many ways I am a secular humanist, too: I think I have a duty to my neighbor and right now especially in health care as well as many other areas.


WKitty...I like your post, too. In this country I think decent health care should be a Right. Anything else is indecent.


Right now I am so liberal in my thinking my current Catholic parish wants no part of me. So be it. I don't want any part of them either. They are so righteous in the cause of nothing much they make me ill. I am very independent as an American. I am American first, born just before WWII. I'm tired of big business dictating to us even in health care. I'm for decency: decent profit, decent wage, decent opportunity.



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5 years ago  ::  Aug 28, 2009 - 9:45AM #7
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

Hello lulu, welcome to Hot Topics! This is a great thread...Unfortunately, it's not a good fit for Hot Topics Zone.


While timely and certainly related to current events, this thread isn't originating from a news link... instead it's an editorial/commentary.  See our guideline stickies at the top of this board to get a better idea of how threads are started and handled (moved) -- it operates a little differently than other forums.


America has always grappled with the tension between Church and State.... Churches have always taken advantage of their special tax status by pontificating politics from the pulpit. Depending upon the religion,denomination and leader, one church is fully in favor of healthcare reform while others interpret their scriptures to speak against it. So it has been, ever since our young country used scripture to argue for or against slavery, women's suffrage and other issues we've faced.


That this thread isn't a good fit doesn't mean it's not worthy of discussion. IT IS.... but I think it'll be a better fit on the Church and State forum. Please feel free to continue your discussion there.


Kind regards,


--- agnosticspirit - Bnet Community co-host HTZ


 

Tribalism, ethnocentricism, racism, nationalism, and FEAR is the Mind Killer... >:(

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 28, 2009 - 2:50PM #8
TPaine
Posts: 9,362

Aug 27, 2009 -- 9:02PM, lulu2 wrote:


I see so many attempts in threads  all over Bnet, stressing the use of Christian values to impassioned the Healthcare debate.


I find it rather convenient. Especially, when the questioner poses their question  more as a whipping tool to be used against Christianity, than a thoughtful tool for debate. To pick and choose what values you see fit to promote, to suit ones agenda, I find rather disengenuous . Now Gods virtues are being brought into the debate. Where are those ACLU members, when you need them, to make sure we arent mixing Church with State.


First I believe Healthcare is something we all WANT, I dont believe its a RIGHT.  When it comes to making decisions regarding the State, we are supposed to us the Constitution as our Guide. There , it only guarntees the freedom to pursue happiness. It never mentioned the right to have doctors when you want them.


As for the now allowed Christian view: Christ said "love you neighbor as yourself." That I would suggest would also include not bankrupting the nation for the wants of some. The other thing was, according to Christian thought, its our personal duty to help others. As far as I can remember, He asked us to render to Caesar the things that were his, and to God the things that were Gods. I do believe everyone who wants Healthcare should find it affordable to all. However to use Christ as your tool to get what you believe is a right, than I want that same right, to not allow my taxes to go against one of my Christian Values, the right to Life..ok its your turn.



Gee, lulu, thank you for allowing me to have a turn. I wasn't aware I needed your permission to reply to your post. I know it can be hard for someone who confuses the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution to understand, but as a Deist I'm opposed to using any religion including Christianity in the health care debate. I oppose groups such as the Liberty Council, the Family Research Council, the Christian Coalition, and the American Family Association using their Christian beliefs (and money) in the debate. Health care is not a Church & State issue. It's a medical and revenue issue.


You consider health care a want, not a right, and use a quote from the Declaration of Independence to make your point. The DOI is not a legal document. The Constitution, on the other hand, is. The preamble to the Constitution states that it was created to, among other things, promote the general welfare (the good of all). Believe me, I will never use Jesus to promote anything since I consider him to be nothing more than a 1st century CE apocalyptic preacher.


It's interesting, and disgusting, to see that you seemingly consider fetal life more valuable than the lives of those who die because they can't afford medical care.

"The genius of the Constitution rests not in any static meaning it might have had in a world that is dead and gone, but in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with current problems and current needs." -- Justice William Brennan: Speech to the Text and Teaching Symposium at Georgetown University (October 12, 1985)
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2009 - 8:29PM #9
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Aug 27, 2009 -- 10:34PM, jane2 wrote:


From the Declaration of Independence, not the Consitution


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"


It is important to get the document correct. The Constitution is amended that no religion be established. I didn't attend law school but did study the Constitution at the college level five decades ago.


...




 


Not exactly,   


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;


 


Parse the setence


 


"shall make no law" is the verb, "establishment"  is a noun modified by a prepositional phrase


 


respecting meant to give preference to


 


establishment meant an institution, organization, group or denomination


 


Modern English: Congress shall make no law giving preference to any religious group or to one over another

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2009 - 8:34PM #10
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Aug 28, 2009 -- 2:50PM, TPaine wrote:


Aug 27, 2009 -- 9:02PM, lulu2 wrote:


I see so many attempts in threads  all over Bnet, stressing the use of Christian values to impassioned the Healthcare debate.


I find it rather convenient. Especially, when the questioner poses their question  more as a whipping tool to be used against Christianity, than a thoughtful tool for debate. To pick and choose what values you see fit to promote, to suit ones agenda, I find rather disengenuous . Now Gods virtues are being brought into the debate. Where are those ACLU members, when you need them, to make sure we arent mixing Church with State.


First I believe Healthcare is something we all WANT, I dont believe its a RIGHT.  When it comes to making decisions regarding the State, we are supposed to us the Constitution as our Guide. There , it only guarntees the freedom to pursue happiness. It never mentioned the right to have doctors when you want them.


As for the now allowed Christian view: Christ said "love you neighbor as yourself." That I would suggest would also include not bankrupting the nation for the wants of some. The other thing was, according to Christian thought, its our personal duty to help others. As far as I can remember, He asked us to render to Caesar the things that were his, and to God the things that were Gods. I do believe everyone who wants Healthcare should find it affordable to all. However to use Christ as your tool to get what you believe is a right, than I want that same right, to not allow my taxes to go against one of my Christian Values, the right to Life..ok its your turn.



Gee, lulu, thank you for allowing me to have a turn. I wasn't aware I needed your permission to reply to your post. I know it can be hard for someone who confuses the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution to understand, but as a Deist I'm opposed to using any religion including Christianity in the health care debate. I oppose groups such as the Liberty Council, the Family Research Council, the Christian Coalition, and the American Family Association using their Christian beliefs (and money) in the debate. Health care is not a Church & State issue. It's a medical and revenue issue.


You consider health care a want, not a right, and use a quote from the Declaration of Independence to make your point. The DOI is not a legal document. The Constitution, on the other hand, is. The preamble to the Constitution states that it was created to, among other things, promote the general welfare (the good of all). Believe me, I will never use Jesus to promote anything since I consider him to be nothing more than a 1st century CE apocalyptic preacher.


It's interesting, and disgusting, to see that you seemingly consider fetal life more valuable than the lives of those who die because they can't afford medical care.




 


TP, You know full well that at the time it was adopted "General Welfare" applied only to federal government and not to the individual citizens inhabiting the various States. The issue being whether the 14th amendment and it's "equal protection clause" extends this to the States.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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