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Switch to Forum Live View Is Peace Out Of Reach?
9 years ago  ::  Oct 24, 2009 - 1:10AM #61
habesor
Posts: 6,223

Kindredsai, you wrote:


 



"1) You are forgetting that 80% of Arabs who were left within the newly created  State of Israel were either expelled or exterminated by Jewish forces, this contributed towards the decision for Middle Eastern States to go to war with Israel."


The Arab states had decided and announced that they were going to war against the establishment of a Jewish state long before the state was actually established and before there was even one Arab refugee. They certainly did not go to war because of the refugees and in fact the whole refugee question became an issue only after the war was mostly over.


"Also I believe that the Jordanian and Egyptian occupation of Palestinian territories were imperative to prevent Israel acquiring more Palestinian land.


It was the never the intention for the West Bank to be be a part of a neighbouring Arab State rather part of the Jewish State as aspired by Jewish leaders."


Sai, now you are making excuses for the Jordanian and Egyptian leadership. Jordan asked for and received  permission from the British government to invade, occupy and annex the West Bank to the territory of Jordan before the State of Israel was established. Jordanian occupation was imperative not to prevent Israel from occupying that territory but for the expansion of Abdullah's little kingdom and to prevent his enemy, the Mufti of Jerusalem from gaining power by becoming the leader of an independent Arab state. The Egyptian cabinet had decided not to go to war but was over ruled by King Faruk when he found out that his hated enemy, Abdullah planned to invade and annex territory, including Jerusalem, to his kingdom. The Egyptians seized war supplies heading for Jordan and while one axis of their advance into the territory was directed towards Tel Aviv, a second axis was directed towards Jerusalem primarily to head off the Jordanian army's bid to capture that city.


So right from the start it was the intention of one Arab state to make the West Bank part of its territory. 


"You are simply sweeping away the fact, were it not for Israel there would be no Palestinian refugees."


You are simply sweeping away the fact that the goals of the Arab states to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state by force and in the case of some of them (including Syria, by the way) of territorial expansionism at the expense of the creation of any Arab Palestinian state, there would have been no Arab refugees. 




"2) I am talking about designated Palestinian territory murders which have for the most part been caused by Israelyou are also denying the fact that Israel has in essence created a climate for refugees to be poured into States such as Lebanon which has led to their deaths i.e. Sabra and Shatila."


Which massacre at Sabra and Shatila are you talking about; the one carried out by Christian Lebanese troops during the first Israel-Lebanese war or the far larger massacre carried out by Syrian sponsored and supported Hizbollah forces during the War of the Camps?


"As for your mere sources, you can try and distract us from IDF murders all you want, though you have a cited examples of Palestinians V Palestinians. It doesn't really take the attention off Israel which has created an unstable political climate in the Levant region."


That's right, Kindredsai, don't let mere facts disturb the false picture of events and Middle Eastern political dynamics in which you faithfully believe.


Habesor


Habesor
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9 years ago  ::  Oct 24, 2009 - 1:24AM #62
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045
Habesor

I was going to say hi to a fellow insomniac, but then I remembered it is actually day time in Israel.

I always find it interesting that there are posters on this board who have absolutely no concern for the facts surrounding the re-establishment of the State of Israel or the intentions or actions of the Arab powers before and after the re-establishment of Israel. I am also find it interesting that they choose to ignore any information brought to them by someone actually living in Israel about what is occuring and has occured in Israel.

Oh well, maybe that is what is keeping me up nights.  :-)
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9 years ago  ::  Oct 24, 2009 - 2:03AM #63
habesor
Posts: 6,223

Rocket,


There is a lot of room for interpretation of events when looking at history. In fact, it is difficult to analyze any historical event without distorting it in some way. Such distortions may come from methods of analysis, the application of certain historical theories or the political, religious or other beliefs of the person doing the analysis.


Here in Israel it was several decades before we took a hard critical look at our own history. This really didn't become main-stream until the so-called "new historians" began to take part in the debate. Unfortunately, the Arabs have not produced anything similar, though I think that Edward Said, towards the end of his life, showed the beginnings of a reappraisal of modern Arab history. 


Most Arab history is written to justify the political position of the leadership at the time the history was written. I learn a lot by going back to the archives and digging up  articles and books written by Arabs or pro-Arab westerners from every decade of the twentieth century. For instance, I once came across an anti-Zionist article in the Atlantic Monthly (I think) which was written in the early 1920's and proclaimed that there was no archeological evidence that a Jewish Temple had existed in Jerusalem and that this was simply a religious myth of which the Zionists had taken advantage. This kind of intellectual position fit very nicely within the context of a modernism which took delight in denying the historical validity of the entire Jewish bible.  This article predated most of the archeological work that has since revealed quite clearly the existence of the Temple, but the Arab position on this issue was abandoned a little while after the article was written and revived only by Palestinian nationalism in the last decade of the twentieth century as part of the attempt to de-legitimize the State of Israel and legitimize a Palestinian Arab state.


Habesor  

Habesor
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9 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2009 - 4:43AM #64
Cohenba
Posts: 1

To give you an idea if peace is out of reach, visit


www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/showpage.asp...


to see the presentation slides from the Gold vs. Goldstone debate at Brandeis University.


 


Also see the footage at jcpa.org

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8 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2010 - 9:04AM #65
Brianp
Posts: 1

Do you want to know who wants peace  visit the website of an Israeli who takes rockets and turns them into roses.


www.rocketsintoroses.com

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8 years ago  ::  May 31, 2010 - 8:20PM #66
Agnostic
Posts: 94

We now know the real reason Obama wants to end nuclear weapons.  He doesn't care about disarming Iran or North Korea. He wants to disarm Israel.


If Jews had known Obama's real attitudes towards Israel, Obama would have lost the election. Instead he fooled Florida, New York and the entire American Jewish community.


Obama is a fake.  A dangerous fake.   When the next holocaust happens, with Iran's nuclear bombs landing in Israel, we can all thank Barack Hussein Obama. 

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8 years ago  ::  May 31, 2010 - 9:23PM #67
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,955

That really sounds awful dramatic, but I just don't see that happening. 


Nonetheless, it does not appear there will ever be any consensus for peace in the Mideast - not with fanatics on both sides out to sabotage any hopeful initiative that comes up.

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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8 years ago  ::  May 31, 2010 - 10:29PM #68
Heidi2027
Posts: 396

Peace is not the objective of the Palestinians.  They are merely the catalyst -- a means to an end.


"We shall oppose the establishment of this state to the last member of  the Palestinian people, for if ever such a state is established it will  spell the end of the whole Palestinian cause [the obliteration of  Israel]."


- Yasser Arafat

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8 years ago  ::  May 31, 2010 - 11:34PM #69
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,955

Arafat is dead and buried.


Seems the Hamas are carrying on his legacy tho...

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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8 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2010 - 6:10AM #70
Jcpa-jerusalemcenter
Posts: 32

In order to assess the situation, a few principles must be made clear:


Israel is unambiguously the nation-state of the Jewish people.  Furthermore, Palestinian national identity would not have developed without Zionism: tiny.cc/smzq0


The PLO platform, as reaffirmed in the Fatah Congress in August 2009, states that their struggle will not stop until the Zionist entity is eliminated and Palestine is liberated. As a logical corollary, they refuse to accept Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people.  One cannot expect a plausible, peaceful solution in the foreseeable future unless the PLO leadership changes its mind, heart, and writings: tiny.cc/8amia


 

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