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Switch to Forum Live View Is Peace Out Of Reach?
5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2009 - 12:00PM #21
Ufaratzta
Posts: 32

Palestinians refugees should be given the choice, after a state for them has been established in West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as the capital whether they want to live in the new state or be integrated with the host Arab peoples they have been a part of since 1948.


The fact that many Middle Eastern Jews were expelled from Arab lands does not necesserily constitute a population exchange which can only be done by parties that are involved and which agree. Only the Israelis agree to this so far. Therefore, there is no point of comparing. Asking for compensations for the Jewish refugees is also baseless before the settlement with the Palestinians is made. What is crucial is the Palestinians figuring out a way to stop making their people think in extreme, fanatic terms, as possibly destroying Israel, and then working from there to create a state. The Palestinian refugees, largely due to moderate Palestinians' own desires, as well as Arafat, in engaging with Israelis and Americans during the Oslo and Taba years have been swept behind the more central issue of Palestinian terrorism and Palestinians state. In fact, Palestinian terrorism itself has swept this issue into oblivion because vile, extreme Palestinian terrorists made their borthers and sisters in shantytowns across the border be implicated as a "dangerous element" that cannot be allowed access into Israel.  

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 10:41PM #22
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,504

Feb 8, 2009 -- 1:43AM, Vanillaangel wrote:

60 Minutes Has peace in the Middle East become nothing more than a pipe dream? As Bob Simon reports, a growing number of Israelis and Palestinians feel that a two-state solution is no longer possible. January 26, 2009 Video Link I think the answer is yes. When clearly it's not only the Palestinians that are working to effect terror and discord in the region. How is it that faith that any one god would approve the murder of women, children and men, on both sides, ever hope to effect peace in the end?! Is peace to be enjoyed when all of one's enemy are dead? Why can't people live and learn from one another? Glorify and enjoy the diversity that makes this world a living tapestry of unique differences that can serve to teach one another, as opposed to inspire one another to kill because there can be only one way to live a life?! I've always wanted to travel to the Holy Land. To feel what the energy of a culture thousands of years older than my own, in the States, has to offer. And yet, the violence and bloodshed make it a frightening thought of a perilous journey. It is said, blessed are the peace makers. And yet, can there ever be peace when it seems, for so many, war is ordained as sacred duty?



I do not believe peace is out of reach. As a Christian, I have come to equate peace and Christ as one and the same. If I was to stop believing peace was possible, stop believing in peace, stop seeking peace, I would have to give up my faith in Jesus and  my reason to live.


The problem is that on both sides there are still too many people who choose violence over peace, too many people choosing to hate, hurt, and kill one another, too many people who spend their time letting other's acts dictate their own acts, rather than letting God dictate their feelings and actions.  


On a positive note, there is in fact a strong nonviolence movement operating in Israel and Palestine, and there are Palestinians, Israelis, Internationals, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Atheists who are all a part of this movement. You don't hear a lot about this movement in the mainstream news here in the US, but it is a vibrant, and very much living and breathing movement filled with people who passionately believe in peace, who reject violence as the answer, and who keep hope alive in their hearts. You can read about this more on the CPT Website, the Sabeel website, Jews For Justice Website, Combatants For Peace website, Come And See website, Sharing The Land Of Canaan website, and many others. 


Sherri

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 10:49PM #23
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,504

Here is an illustration of some of the obstacles to peace, acts of Israel involving ethnic cleansing in the Jordan Valley, as reported by a French peace activist/photographer, Anne Paq:  


"Israeli authorities this morning carried out a series of demolitions in the Wadi al Malih area in the northern Jordan Valley. The area is primarily inhabited by Bedouin families, which have lived in the area for a number of years. The area is close to several Israeli settlements, including the settlements of Sdemot Mehola, Rotem (Nahal) and Maskiyyot (Nahal).

As a result of today's demolitions 3 families, a total of 20 people, including 9 children and 3 elderly persons over 65, have been displaced. In addition, 12 animal shelters belonging to the 3 families and 2 other families were demolished."


 chroniquespalestine.blogspot.com/


 Sherri

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 11:45PM #24
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,504

The peacemakers include Israeli Jews, who are even going to jail because of their peacemaking acts, in the "democratic" nation of  Israel: 


"Work for Justice, Go to Jail?"


Ezra Nawi may well go to jail July 1st for non-violently protecting the homes of Bedouin Palestinians in the South Hebron Hills from being demolished. 


This story was reported by Haaretz and is addressed in an Isareli peace blog.


jewishpeacenews.blogspot.com


Sherri 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2009 - 12:13AM #25
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,504

I just found myself reading a blog post about pacifism, from a blog I was directed to by an EMAIL from a CPT website. There are some interesting comments made in this article about peacemaking, I just found myself thinking about the words in the Christian Bible, the New Testament, about peacemakers, Blessed are the Peacemakers. Notice something, there are no words that say only believers are being referred to. What happens to a person when they engage in active peacemaking, when they engage in protests, in acts of nonviolent resistance?


Here are excerpts from an article addressing these questions:


"Pacifism rejects the use of violent means despite the fact that the tree of violence reaches through contract and contractor into the main streets of most of our communities.  The contradiction inherent in modern economy brings the production, ideological formation and general culture of violence inside our homes and work life.  At one time it may have been possible to be a wedge into the organized violent suppression of violence by simply refusing military service. For most of us that expression of pacifism, refusal to join the military, is no longer the only critical boundary for a life of peacemaking. However, in some countries, like Israel, Colombia and Iraq the decision not to participate in the military is still the flashpoint.  In systems where there is no longer a draft the decision by active duty soldiers to get out because of moral convictions  is often transforming and costly. 


There are three possible responses to violence to which we are connected in Afghanistan, Iraq and Cleveland, violent opposition, passivity, or militant nonviolence.  The active even militant nonviolence inherent in pacifism transforms life from static hum drum and rules, to dynamic engagement with the power of active living. In the Bible peacemakers (the Latin translation used the term pacifist) are called Blessed.   


To be Blessed according to Roman Catholic tradition is to be beatified and worthy of veneration.  Perhaps not everyone who does peacemaking wants to be beatified by the Roman Church or venerated.  However the root meaning of pacifism, peacemaking with all the release of energy that it implies, still holds.  Being pacifist is not a rigid formula for action.  Pacifism is the awakened conscience and the willingness to act on it sometimes alone, but preferably with some support.  The blessing is inherent in the action itself, and the surprise that follows."


peaceprobe.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/the-...


Sherri 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2009 - 9:15PM #26
stevenlmeyer
Posts: 1,043

Peace is impossible.

Let's cut to the quick. There are two issues on which neither side can compromise.

The first is what Palestinians call a "right of return." An Israeli government cannot accede to a "right of return." Note the use of "cannot" as opposed to "will not". Short of the use of overwhelming coercion no Israeli Government can accede to a "right of return" for Palestinians. Any government that even hinted it was thinking along those lines might last in office for all of three nanoseconds.

On the other hand it appears that no Palestinian leader can give up on a "right of return".

How can this circle be squared? Money, it seems, will not do the trick. Anyway, how do you bind future generations?

The second issue is the simple fact that the wider Muslim world is unlikely ever to accept the existence of a Jewish enclave in the heart of what Muslims regard as the heart of Dar ul Islam.

Please note that I am not commenting on the rights or wrongs of Muslims and Jews in this regard. I am simply stating the position.

Given these irreconcilable differences I am at a loss to see how peace is even possible. The best that we can hope for is armed non-belligerence. But even that may be unachievable.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2009 - 1:17AM #27
habesor
Posts: 5,658

Is peace out of reach?


No. But it will not be achieved easily either. The solution to the conflict is fairly simple but getting there is a very complex process.


Habesor  

Habesor
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2009 - 8:51AM #28
stevenlmeyer
Posts: 1,043

Well Habesor,


How would you propose to resolve the issue of what Palestinians call a "right of return?"


Do you truly believe this is just some "bargaining chip" that the Palestinian leadership will give up on? Let me assure, it isn't.


And if you cannot resolve that, how can you have peace?


Even if the right of return issue could be resolved, do you think the wider Muslim world will ever accept the existence of a Jewish enclave in Dar-ul-Islam? If you do I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.


 


 


 


 


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2009 - 5:19PM #29
habesor
Posts: 5,658

Steven, you wrote:


 "How would you propose to resolve the issue of what Palestinians call a "right of return?""


Whoever wants to return can return to the Palestinian state. There will be no "return" to Israel. Even Obama agrees with this position. A Palestinian insistence on a right of return is a deal breaker pure and simple. If the Palestinians remain adamant then we will have positive proof that they are not interested in peace. 


"Do you truly believe this is just some "bargaining chip" that the Palestinian leadership will give up on? Let me assure, it isn't."


I don't know if it is a bargaining chip but not giving up on it will prevent any peace agreement.


 "And if you cannot resolve that, how can you have peace?"


That's a good question and there are a few other good questions as well. As a part of the left (not too far left) peace advocates, I used to argue with right wing critics of the various peace plans by challenging them to come up with a plan of their own. The sad fact (and in my opinion it is extremely sad) is that our plans did not work either. I know what a mutually beneficial peace arrangement would look like. However getting there isn't half the fun but 99 percent of the problem.  


"Even if the right of return issue could be resolved, do you think the wider Muslim world will everaccept the existence of a Jewish enclave in Dar-ul-Islam?"


It has happened before. For instance the Muslims of India have worked out a theological position for not being the ruling power there. Unfortunately the rest of the Muslim world has gone in the opposite direction as far as Israel is concerned.


By the way, I don't smoke anything but I have a preference for Jack Daniels or Jim Beam.


Habesor

Habesor
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2009 - 7:26PM #30
stevenlmeyer
Posts: 1,043

Habesor wrote,

"…the Muslims of India have worked out a theological position for not being the ruling power there."

Muslims in India are a minority. Probably no more than 20% of the population. The Hindu majority is highly intolerant of Islam and some Indans are prepared to massacre to make their point. As so often happens, theology bowed to the inevitable.

But Jews are an almost infinitesimal minority in Dar-ul-Islam and Muslims are at least as willing to massacre Jews as Hindus are to massacre Muslims. I see no sign that the wider Ummah is willing to even contemplate a Jewish enclave in Dar-ul-Islam. I certainly do not think the views of an American president, even one called Barrack Hussein Obama, could persuade them otherwise.

I also see no sign that any Palestinian leader would consider giving up on a "right of return". I do not think a Palestinian leader could give up on that even if he wanted to. He'd be killed.

In short, the differences are too fundamental. All talk of peace is wishful thinking. This is a fight to the death.

Deep down, Habesor, I think you understand that. I think most Israelis understand it. The only difference between you and me is that I am prepared to admit to myself that I was wrong in ever thinking peace was possible. You have not yet reached that stage.


The thought of war to the death is horrible because the odds are that, in the long run, Israel will lose. But you do not plan to save a people by indulging in cloud cuckooland thinking. You achieve things by facing reality however unpleasant.


 


 

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