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6 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2008 - 10:04AM #101
rangerken
Posts: 16,408
Of course not, Karma...which is why I want to make sure that we continue to fight all of our battles and wars in other peoples' countries and if and when anyone actually hits us in our own country I want us to be able to completely destroy them. I feel we have used far too LITTLE force in Afghanistan for example!

Just in case there is the slightest possibility of my being misunderstood...

If we go to war and the results are...
Zero dead Americans and no damage to th US...and
Thousands of dead somebody else's and their country devastated... WE DID IT RIGHT!

Best not to have to go to war at all of course...much better to resolve differences peacefully...negotiations beat the hell out of killing...BUT, if we have to fight I want us to win and to do so overwhelmingly.

Remember...war crimes trials are held by the victors! And like it or not THAT is the main lesson to be leaned from Nurenburg, unless, of course, anybody thinks that if the Nazis had won, their 'better nature' would have caused them to do a 'oh my...we were naughty...so sorry'...NOT!

Clear Karma?

Ken
Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2008 - 11:27AM #102
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519
[QUOTE=John_T_Mainer;572497]From what I saw of both sides, they both like to see their enemies non-combatants in little bits and peices.  I had no problem whatsoever motivating myself to point my rifle in either direction.  The even more amazing thing is how much more each side would like to turn on its own moderates.  They are the only ones I really pitied, because it seems like the only targets anyone could agree on were the peacemakers.

Again, you are incorrect in assuming that Isreal, itself a theocratic state, is a model of how the weapon should be used.  The missle is another example, we use guided missles to hit precision targets without causing the widespread destruction of a conventional high explosive area saturation bombing.  The Iraqi used their SCUDs like old V1 and V2 rockets to inflict random damage on targets as general as a city (large and easily plotted, even by unskilled losers).  One uses technology to reduce casualites, the other to inflict some at random.  Its not the tool, its the user.[/QUOTE]

John_T_Mainer,

It was the appalling misuse of cluster bombs by Israel inside Lebanon that led to this treaty banning cluster bombs being signed by most nations. You make a point here that has some merit and that is that it is often the misuse of weapons that is the problem, not necessarily the weapons themselves. The problem is that the international community has no effective mechanism to stop Israel or others from the appalling misuse of  cluster bombs against civilians which has become a regular Israeli practice, thus the only way to end the human rights abuses against civilians resulting from their widespread misuse, is to ban cluster bombs altogether.

In the Iran Iraq War, the two sides engaged in the War of the Cities, intentionally targeting civilian populations in the cities, such as Tehran, with missiles. It was the terror caused to the civilian populations that led to the parties agreeing to end the war in 1988.

I today oppose war completely because what I see is that everyone violates the rules of war. I do not see anyone who engages in war, and comes out of that war with clean hands. They all commit war crimes, and they all hurt and target civilians. Harm to civilians can be intentional or from indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks that always kill civilians. Both acts are war crimes. Both acts hurt and kill innocent civilians and children.

In the war you were in, I do not think you were in a combat role, but were part of peacekeeper forces. As I recall, Israel even targeted and killed some of the international forces at the border, including one or more soldiers from Canada. Do you happen to know what happened to lawsuits filed in reference to the Canadians killed? There was a lot of talk at the time about war crimes trials being considered.

Sherri
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2008 - 12:36PM #103
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301
[QUOTE=rangerken;572948]..war crimes trials are held by the victors! And like it or not THAT is the main lesson to be leaned from Nurenburg, unless, of course, anybody thinks that if the Nazis had won, their 'better nature' would have caused them to do a 'oh my...we were naughty...so sorry'...NOT! Clear Karma?[/QUOTE]
Clear yes. A more lucid affirmation of moral relativism has seldom been seen, Ken.
tl;dr
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2008 - 8:22PM #104
ElCid22
Posts: 1,156
[QUOTE=CharikIeia;573302]Clear yes. A more lucid affirmation of moral relativism has seldom been seen, Ken.[/QUOTE]

Excuse me...................did you say you're DUTCH? If so, I'm confused. How can the DUTCH preach moral absolutism to anyone???????
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2008 - 8:37PM #105
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,658
[QUOTE=Karma_Yeshe_Dorje;572646]Are you happy for your enemies to use such munitions on your territory, against your people?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't be happy if enemies attacked my nation with butter knives.  The job of a soldier is to defend his or her people, and follow the lawful commands of their govornment.  I am not happy with orders that expose our troops to unnecessary losses.  I am not all that thrilled at necessary losses either, but sometimes the job needs to be done for the defence of the realm, or in the defence of peoples whom my govornment have deemed to be under our protection.

I never played fair; fair meant burying friends.  Shoot them in the back, shell them before they are in range,  jam their communications, bypass their scouts and kill them in their tents if you can.  If I could push a button and kill every single enemy combatant without exposing a single friendly to return fire, that button would be pushed in a heartbeat.

If you get the idea that I don't value all lives equally, you are correct.  Enemy combatants are to be killed in the most efficient way possible, with the least risk to your own troops.  If they are in the field, then civilian casualties will be minimum.  If they are dug in within towns or cities, civilians will die.  When we are defending civilians, some of them get killed too.  Try as you might, the enemy really wants to win too, and some of them are pretty good.

This isn't a fairy tale.  People die.  Do your best to minimize the deaths of innocents and allies, but good people will still be dying. 

Hey if politicians did their job right in the first place, my job would never have to get done at all.  In the last hundred thousand years they haven't done so well.  Maybe one day no one will need us at all.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2008 - 3:45AM #106
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301
[QUOTE=ElCid22;574371]Excuse me...................did you say you're DUTCH? I'm confused.[/QUOTE]
No, Cid, I never said that. I am not Dutch.

Why are you confused, though?
Morality is not the same as Catholic dogma.
The Dutch, my host nation, are far from immoral -- very, very convinced of their core values!
tl;dr
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2008 - 5:38AM #107
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 12,805
[QUOTE]Overkill is the use of excessive force or action that goes further than is necessary to achieve its goal.[/QUOTE]~Wikipedia~
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2008 - 8:13PM #108
rangerken
Posts: 16,408
Karma, I understand your point...you'd like very much for it to be possible to fight...if fighting was necessary...in such a way so as to make civilian losses few and rare. I share your wishes in this regard. Unfortunately, particularly today, this current extremely vile, barbaric, and fanatic, radical islamist  enemy tries as hard as possible to cause civilian losses and intentionally uses civilians as shields whenever possible.

And that is why the law of land warfare in cases like that clearly holds those who intetionally place civilans in harms way totally responsible.

This thread is about cluster munitions. Like any weapon this one can be and has been missused. But it is a most effective weapon when used with precision, and accuracy against unarmored enemies. And as I've written before, it has helped me keep my soldiers alive while making the enemy safely dead.

So to get back on topic, I do not want us to stop using them.

And Chari, moral relativism is something professional soldiers know all about. Try wrapping your mind around the term 'situational sociopath'. A lot of us are able to don that thought process and thereby not be permanently traumatized by things we saw and did.

And also, Chari, morality is always determined by ther strongest who get to impose theirs on the weaker. That may or may not be a good thing, depending upon your own view of someone's moral structure...but it is as fact...has always been one...and always will be one.

Ken
Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2008 - 4:57AM #109
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301
You mistake morality for power, Ken, or vice versa.
If the Nazis had won, their acts would not have been whitewashed to moral action.

This occasionally requires admission of mistake by the victor, something people cannot conceive of once they equate defeat with error. I am not surprised to find this attitude in Americans, the one nation in which misery always is blamed on the miserabe one's own shortcomings.

But we don't want to drift off topic too far :)
tl;dr
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2008 - 9:58AM #110
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519
[QUOTE=CharikIeia;577487]You mistake morality for power, Ken, or vice versa.
If the Nazis had won, their acts would not have been whitewashed to moral action.

This occasionally requires admission of mistake by the victor, something people cannot conceive of once they equate defeat with error. I am not surprised to find this attitude in Americans, the one nation in which misery always is blamed on the miserabe one's own shortcomings.

But we don't want to drift off topic too far :)[/QUOTE]

Charikleia,

You forget to include Israel, as another nation with the attitude that misery is to be blamed on the miserable one's own shortcomings. The Palestinian's misery is, of course, all their own fault. And the Lebanese, the cluster bombs and their devastation, it is all their fault too and they deserve everything that happens to them.  I have heard Ken frequently make this statement about the Palestinians, and Habesor often makes similar statements. In following events in Israel over the past couple of years, it is amazing how similar the policies of the present Israeli and US governments are to each other. Some like to believe this is all due to Bush, and will change with new US leadership. I am not so sure about that.   

The Fourth Geneva Convention primarily serves to protect innocent civilians in wars. The children and innocent civilians never are the ones who choose the wars and they should never be blamed or punished in wars, wherever they are, whether in the Middle East or anywhere else in the world. It takes two parties, two sides, to have a war. They both have obligations to protect civilians, although you would never know that, when you look around at all the civilians killed in wars in the Middle East today. It is always both sides engaged in killing civilians.

In Israel and the US, there is a serious problem with how the people look at those who are not American and not Jewish. The people do not see lives as having the same value, when they are are not American and not Jewish. Civilian populations are just terrorist training camps. Children are just future terrorists. Mothers are just recepticles to bear future terrorists. The loss of our humanity is the thing I find most appalling.  Torture or anything we do to them is not a big deal, really. After all, they would do much worse to us, and that justifies anything and everything. This is what I hear from former soldiers I talk to, coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sherri
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