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6 years ago  ::  May 29, 2008 - 1:00PM #1
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 11,670
[QUOTE]109 nations have agreed on a treaty that bans the use, sale and acquisition of cluster bombs.[/QUOTE]~New Scientist~
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6 years ago  ::  May 29, 2008 - 1:24PM #2
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303
Yup. Good news!

The German government has ordered the Bundeswher to immediately destroy its cluster bomb arsenal.

Now I wonder: which countries did NOT agree to participate in this step? Any?
tl;dr
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6 years ago  ::  May 29, 2008 - 3:03PM #3
Armwar
Posts: 12,019
THe US did not and will not. 


Gail
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6 years ago  ::  May 29, 2008 - 3:38PM #4
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,253
Gee, maybe when Russia, China and Pakistan jump on the bandwagon, the US will as well....
Tribalism, ethnocentricism, racism, nationalism, and FEAR is the Mind Killer... >:(

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6 years ago  ::  May 29, 2008 - 4:01PM #5
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303
Do you support your government's decision to not end its production, stockpiling, sale and use of  cluster ammunition, Gail? You know, those little bomblets that children love to play around with right before they explode...
tl;dr
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 6:44AM #6
ElCid22
Posts: 1,156
[QUOTE=CharikIeia;531539]Do you support your government's decision to not end its production, stockpiling, sale and use of  cluster ammunition, Gail? You know, those little bomblets that children love to play around with right before they explode...[/QUOTE]

We must retain every tactical option. It makes no sense for civilized nations to handicap themselves when fighting barbaric enemies. It might take acts of cruelty to subdue them, for the greater good. The dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan during WWII comes to mind. If we had not done so, we would have lost a million troops in the invasion of the Japanese islands, and the war would dragged on, possibly for years. An untold number of Japanese civilians would have been killed, as well. The nuclear option provided the best solution, specifically because of its extreme lethality.
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 1:09PM #7
Armwar
Posts: 12,019
Char, I am no military expert, as El Cid points out.  His statement speaks for me.   

Gail
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 2:56PM #8
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303
I do not need to be a military expert to be able to form an own judgment here.

Actually, where I live, citizens are used to freely make up their own minds, and few would allow themselves to follow in lockstep some elite of "military experts" instead of speaking their conscience.

Under such conditions, you get a government that does not lead you by the nose, but represents you in its decisions. Like happened now with the cluster bomb ban. My government, elected with my vote, implements my preferences not to leave those bomblets lingering around, to be picked up by some unhappy child some day.

Cid's position is one disinterested in the children. He'll have to answer tough questions on that, one day...
tl;dr
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 6:32PM #9
ElCid22
Posts: 1,156
Cluster bombs and scatterable mines must be used with great, great discretion, no doubt. I lament the disasterous, post-war outcomes.
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6 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 10:56AM #10
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,658
Canada signed that stupid treaty banning the use of mines.  Granted the indescriminant use of mines by third world countries and insurgent groups has led to countless needless civilian casualties, but the abuses of a tool do nothing to detract from its utility.

I remember training in ambush tactics that used to be triggered by command detonated or tripwire mines, now using trip flares instead.  Instead of gunning down the shattered few, we now had to face equal or greater numbers under a positional disadvantage and temporary (at best) surprise.  The casualty difference on our side is quite different between the use of mines, and the use of flares.  It goes from burying none of your friends, to burying a handful.

Cluster munitions are very effective at removing exposed troops and inflicting attritive losses on troops forced to manoever accross ground hit with area denial weapons.  It saves lives on our side as killing enemy before they have a chance to range your own troops is the whole point of air power in the first place.

Unlike the Third World we have the best combat engineers in the world, and have the experience and training to clear mined regions AFTER the battle has been won.  Unlike the former Soviet Union, we also have the committment to do so.

Do not deprive your armies of the advantages they have, or you will be choosing to kill your own people for the great crime of going where YOU sent them to fight the wars YOU told them to, and dying because YOU tied their hands first.

And yes, in a democracy soldiers serve the will of the people as the laws of their nation judge it.  If you have a problem with your political and electoral system, fix it, and stop blaming soldiers for the fact that you civilians haven't defended your freedoms at home.  That job really is yours, and really does require the whole of the people to enforce their democratic rights by supporting only candidates that will deliver the electoral reform that you all seem to be complaining is needed.
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