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6 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2008 - 9:58AM #111
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492
[QUOTE=CharikIeia;577487]You mistake morality for power, Ken, or vice versa.
If the Nazis had won, their acts would not have been whitewashed to moral action.

This occasionally requires admission of mistake by the victor, something people cannot conceive of once they equate defeat with error. I am not surprised to find this attitude in Americans, the one nation in which misery always is blamed on the miserabe one's own shortcomings.

But we don't want to drift off topic too far :)[/QUOTE]

Charikleia,

You forget to include Israel, as another nation with the attitude that misery is to be blamed on the miserable one's own shortcomings. The Palestinian's misery is, of course, all their own fault. And the Lebanese, the cluster bombs and their devastation, it is all their fault too and they deserve everything that happens to them.  I have heard Ken frequently make this statement about the Palestinians, and Habesor often makes similar statements. In following events in Israel over the past couple of years, it is amazing how similar the policies of the present Israeli and US governments are to each other. Some like to believe this is all due to Bush, and will change with new US leadership. I am not so sure about that.   

The Fourth Geneva Convention primarily serves to protect innocent civilians in wars. The children and innocent civilians never are the ones who choose the wars and they should never be blamed or punished in wars, wherever they are, whether in the Middle East or anywhere else in the world. It takes two parties, two sides, to have a war. They both have obligations to protect civilians, although you would never know that, when you look around at all the civilians killed in wars in the Middle East today. It is always both sides engaged in killing civilians.

In Israel and the US, there is a serious problem with how the people look at those who are not American and not Jewish. The people do not see lives as having the same value, when they are are not American and not Jewish. Civilian populations are just terrorist training camps. Children are just future terrorists. Mothers are just recepticles to bear future terrorists. The loss of our humanity is the thing I find most appalling.  Torture or anything we do to them is not a big deal, really. After all, they would do much worse to us, and that justifies anything and everything. This is what I hear from former soldiers I talk to, coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sherri
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2008 - 7:11PM #112
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 12,194
[QUOTE]"I am the plague of god sent to punish humanity for their sins."

- Gengis Khan[/QUOTE]~Islamic Awakening~
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 7:11PM #113
rangerken
Posts: 16,407
What you hear from our men and women returning home from Iraq and Afghanistan is correct, true, and a big reason we act the way we do, Sherri.

I sincerely hope we will not change!

Karma, I have always admired the campaigns of the Mongols. Brilliant warriors. I don't have much liking for their morality of course...BUT, that mattered not at all, now did it?

And Chari, the hardest thing for any army to do is to learn from victory. Think about that. I'll expand later.

Ken
Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 6:03AM #114
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 12,194
G'day rangerken:

[QUOTE]the Mongols. Brilliant warriors. I don't have much liking for their morality[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Iraq's civil society was turned into the worst catastrophe that country has suffered since Hulagu Khan's Mongols sacked Baghdad in the middle of the 13th Century. Like Cheney, Hulagu Khan also considered the innocent civilians "collateral damage." And like Bush's unprovoked attack, Hulagu Khan's caused the deaths of at least a quarter million civilians. In the wake of the Mongols-- and in the wake of the Bush Regime-- mosques, palaces, museums, libraries, and hospitals were looted and destroyed. Hulagu Khan ordered the Caliph and his sons killed, as did Bush with Saddam and his sons and both tyrants turned Shi'a against Sunni to help them destroy the country.[/QUOTE]~Down With Tyranny~
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 10:02PM #115
rangerken
Posts: 16,407
I did say, Karma, that I did not have much liking for Mongol morality.

They were, regardless of that, the finest military force ever assembled since the time when Rome's army was still supreme.

I admire victory, Karma...even when deploring some results. For example, I thoroughly admire Guderian's work in France in 1940, and the Japanese attack against Sigapore in 1941 and early 1942. That doesn't mean I like what either the Germans or Japanese did after their victories.

In any case, getting back to the thread topic, cluster munitions are a weapon that can only be used by the technologically superior militaries...and is best used against unarmored infantry...in other words, cluster munitions favor the well equipped and trained over the rabble. Since I'm all for the well equiiped wiping out the rabble, I want us to keep on using cluster munitions.

Hmmmmmm...just in case someone ignorant of history tries to comment that the American rebles were rabble in 1775, I strongly suggest they check out factual history. That was absolutely not the case, though some idiots like to pretend it was.

Ken
Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 10:38PM #116
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492
Ken,

It seems to me what we do shows who we are. I find no way to escape the truth of this. Excuses and justifications change nothing, and I cannot just look the other way and pretend it is not happening.

Sherri
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 10:02PM #117
rangerken
Posts: 16,407
I did say, Karma, that I did not have much liking for Mongol morality.

They were, regardless of that, the finest military force ever assembled since the time when Rome's army was still supreme.

I admire victory, Karma...even when deploring some results. For example, I thoroughly admire Guderian's work in France in 1940, and the Japanese attack against Sigapore in 1941 and early 1942. That doesn't mean I like what either the Germans or Japanese did after their victories.

In any case, getting back to the thread topic, cluster munitions are a weapon that can only be used by the technologically superior militaries...and is best used against unarmored infantry...in other words, cluster munitions favor the well equipped and trained over the rabble. Since I'm all for the well equiiped wiping out the rabble, I want us to keep on using cluster munitions.

Hmmmmmm...just in case someone ignorant of history tries to comment that the American rebles were rabble in 1775, I strongly suggest they check out factual history. That was absolutely not the case, though some idiots like to pretend it was.

Ken
Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 10:38PM #118
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492
Ken,

It seems to me what we do shows who we are. I find no way to escape the truth of this. Excuses and justifications change nothing, and I cannot just look the other way and pretend it is not happening.

Sherri
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 11:49PM #119
rangerken
Posts: 16,407
Sherri, I have no argument with your last statement.

I excused nothing by the way.

My point was, and is, that cluster munitkions are a useful weapon for us to use...I used them...they worked as advertised...they saved the lives of my soldiers and killed a lot of the enemy...and I think we should continue to use them.

That's about as simple and straighforward as I can be. And my justification is within my statement...'they saved the lives of my soldiers'...end of subject as far as I'm concerned.

Never forget who and what I was, Sherri, and that I am not the least bit apologetic for it.

Ken
Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2008 - 12:42AM #120
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,658
[QUOTE=SherriMunnerlyn;583038]Ken,

It seems to me what we do shows who we are. I find no way to escape the truth of this. Excuses and justifications change nothing, and I cannot just look the other way and pretend it is not happening.

Sherri[/QUOTE]

I agree most emphatically.  That is why I became a soldier.  That is why I trained as a lifeguard, and first aid attendant.  That is why I continue to serve my community as I can.  It is not enough to see things you cannot accept, you must take responsibility for changing them.  You must not ask others to do for you what you could not do with your own hands. 

I have never looked away, walked past, left for others the task of dealing with the harshness of this world.  On my hands the blood, on my body the wounds, on my judgement the decision.  And on my honour the result.

Anyone who can say the same has my respect.  I do not demand you share my ethic, I simply judge you by the sincerity with which you lived your own.  It sounds like you stack up OK in that reguard.  Thus is respect given.
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