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Switch to Forum Live View Jewish people are the real native people of Israel
6 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2009 - 2:50PM #341
teilhard
Posts: 51,871
There are entirely Good and Reasonable Historic REASONS
for The DEEP Affinity
felt by The People of Israel
for The LAND of Israel ...
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2009 - 5:13PM #342
newyawka
Posts: 1,772
i read in a book once - i think the book was called 'the bible' - that abraham left his native territory somewhere in what we now call mesopotamia, and went to the area now called israel, where he found people already living (as johndavid says above).

but if i'm wrong, i'm ready to be corrected.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2009 - 5:36PM #343
JAstor
Posts: 3,957
[QUOTE=newyawka;1027426]i read in a book once - i think the book was called 'the bible' - that abraham left his native territory somewhere in what we now call mesopotamia, and went to the area now called israel, where he found people already living (as johndavid says above).

but if i'm wrong, i'm ready to be corrected.[/QUOTE]

You are correct. The aforementioned book does not stake the Children of Israel's claim to the land on the premise that Abraham was the first there, but rather the promise/covenant that God gave him, and then his son Isaac and then his son Jacob that his children would inherit the land forever.

Interestingly, along came Christianity and then Islam both of which built their religions on the back of the aforementioned book, never disputing the aforementioned promise/covenant.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 7:09AM #344
NahumS
Posts: 1,772
The issue is not who came first. The issue is who maintained a constant relationship with the land over the generations.
Not only did Jewish pilgrims constantly visit the land and often attempt to return to it throughout the exile, but Jews everywhere turned in prayer to Jerusalem and mentioned that holy city and the entire Land of Israel, in their daily prayers.
The covenant is a matter of religious faith- but the preservation and rejuvenation of the Hebrew language, the hopes and prayers for return to the land and the modern ingathering of exiles are all facts.
The residents of Ma'on and Carmel, whether you accept or disagree with their choice of location, sincerely see themselves as continuing Jewish life in the land of the Bible, returning to the places where our prophets and kings walked and renewing our ancient presence there.
These communities may be unauthorized, but who has the right to call a Jewish community in the Land of Israel illegal?
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 11:03AM #345
Marcyy
Posts: 723
If all the Native Americans laid claim to the whole USA, what do you think the responce would be. After all, they were here for at least 10,000 years. Don't they have a more valid claim than Jews have to Israel.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 1:03PM #346
Chokmah
Posts: 3,088
Blond haired, blue eyed Ashkenazim from Europe are in no way returning to their 'homeland' when they are shipped to Israel. The Palestinians are authentic Semites, the European Jews are not.

Let Israel be one country, democratically ruled with one man-one vote. Then let the country evolve the way it should.

Otherwise, Israel is just an invention and guilt offering by the European made, U.S. enforced United Nations.
"We thought, because we had power, we had wisdom"
      --Stephen Vincent Benet
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 1:04PM #347
LeahOne
Posts: 16,476
[QUOTE=Marcyy;1028724]If all the Native Americans laid claim to the whole USA, what do you think the responce would be. After all, they were here for at least 10,000 years. Don't they have a more valid claim than Jews have to Israel.[/QUOTE]

Not a very good analogy, since the NA's didn't get to expel 900,000 of their own citizens from NA lands all across the new world for the crime of simply being Jews.

The fiction that Israelis are 'European' by ancestry is rooted in denial of assorted Arab nations officially stripping their jewisch communities of all property and rights and expelling them.  UNlike those same Arab nations, the Israelis took in their refugee kinfolk and integrated them into Israeli society.  So now the MAJORITY of Israelis are "locals' - Jews of ME ethnicity.

And NO - I don't think a NA claim to the New World is any more valid than Jews' to israel - especially since we BOUGHT the land we built on from the legal owners of record.  Maybe ther needs to be discussion between the fellahin and the heirs of the Ottomans about that - but certainly the Jewish settler groups couldn't force anyone to let them buy the land.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 1:11PM #348
vra
Posts: 6,407
[QUOTE=Chokmah;1028968]Blond haired, blue eyed Ashkenazim from Europe are in no way returning to their 'homeland' when they are shipped to Israel. The Palestinians are authentic Semites, the European Jews are not.  [/QUOTE]

European Jews have very much a Semitic heritage according to comparative blood types.  On top of that, exactly what is an "authentic Semite" since that area had long been a crossroads for many groups who came, with some staying?  In anthropology, we well recognize that there simply is no such thing as a pure race or pure nationality. 

Instead of "pure", it's more of a "puree".
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 2:52PM #349
JAstor
Posts: 3,957
[QUOTE=Marcyy;1028724]If all the Native Americans laid claim to the whole USA, what do you think the responce would be. After all, they were here for at least 10,000 years. Don't they have a more valid claim than Jews have to Israel.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you should get off the Native American land you are living on.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2009 - 9:00AM #350
KindredSai
Posts: 5,789
[QUOTE=JAstor;1029219]Yes, you should get off the Native American land you are living on.[/QUOTE]

It's a stupid comparison because not all of America was inhabited by indigenous populations, and there is not a cry for Native American autonomy. I agree that Israel was a colonial establishment through immigration but "saying but what about the US?" is attempting to shy away from Israel's current problems and is not actually addressing the problem.
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