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Switch to Forum Live View The Separation of Church and State
6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 1:49AM #41
TPaine
Posts: 9,427

davelaw40 wrote:

I have the Autobiography of Ben Franklin and I know its not there-and the letters from John Adams to Abigail and know its not there and the Federalist papers and its not there-its not in Jefferson's works or Madison's



"I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country." -- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the "Magna-Charta" here refers to the proposed United States Constitution

Judging from this quote Washington would side with the separationists as well

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." -- General Smedley Butler: War is a Racket (1935)

"War is mankind's most tragic and stupid folly; to seek or advise its deliberate provocation is a black crime against all men. Though you follow the trade of the warrior, you do so in the spirit of Washington — not of Genghis Khan. For Americans, only threat to our way of life justifies resort to conflict." - General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower: Graduation Exercises at the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, USA at 3 June 1947
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 9:16AM #42
Drwhite
Posts: 309
[QUOTE=amcolph;1019024]the Christian founding fathers belonged, for the most part, to denominations which would make them, by your own definition, "fake" Christians.

Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, there were

28 Episcopalians

8 Presbyterians

7 Congregationalists

2 Lutherans

2 Dutch Reformed

2 Methodists

2 Roman Catholics

3 Deists

1 Unknown.

Of those, only the Presbyterians and the Dutch Reformed can be, by any stretch of the imagination, termed "Bible-believing true Christians," and that is giving you the benefit of the doubt, as "Bible-believing" Christianity  (ie, Fundamentalism) had not yet been invented.

All that fanciful blather about how pious they were doesn't come into it.  The fact of the matter is that by virtue of their theology at least 80% of the founding fathers were not "Bible-believing true Christians" as you, yourself, have defined the term.[/QUOTE]

All except the bottom four are Christian denominations.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 10:13AM #43
amcolph
Posts: 18,004
[QUOTE=DrWhite;1020332]All except the bottom four are Christian denominations.[/QUOTE]

No doubt, but according to our correspondent Friend! not all of these denominations are "Bible-believing true Christian", denominations

but instead are "fake Christians," as he calls them.

His reasoning, as far as I understand it is as follows:

1. The Founding Fathers were Christians

2.  Therefore, the nation they founded is a Christian nation.

3.  Consequently, Christianity is in a priviledged position of some kind yet to be characterized.

However, he makes it clear that the position of priviledge belongs only to what he calls "Bible-believing true Christians."

If so, how can it depend on the "fake" faith of men who were not, for the most part, Bible-believing true Christians?

In other words, his case for a Christian nation depends on regarding the Founding Fathers as Christians, but most of them belonged to churches which he regards as apostate.

I think he should be consistent.  He should either abandon his claim that the Founders were Christians, or acknowledge the authenticity of the churches they belonged to.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 10:35AM #44
amcolph
Posts: 18,004
Of course, he has since advanced the claim that the Founders were privately "Bible-believing true Christians" in spite of the unacceptable apostate theology of the churches they belonged to.

He has not yet provided any evidence for this claim.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 1:11PM #45
TPaine
Posts: 9,427

amcolph wrote:

the Christian founding fathers belonged, for the most part, to denominations which would make them, by your own definition, "fake" Christians.

Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, there were

28 Episcopalians

8 Presbyterians

7 Congregationalists

2 Lutherans

2 Dutch Reformed

2 Methodists

2 Roman Catholics

3 Deists

1 Unknown.

Of those, only the Presbyterians and the Dutch Reformed can be, by any stretch of the imagination, termed "Bible-believing true Christians," and that is giving you the benefit of the doubt, as "Bible-believing" Christianity  (ie, Fundamentalism) had not yet been invented.

All that fanciful blather about how pious they were doesn't come into it.  The fact of the matter is that by virtue of their theology at least 80% of the founding fathers were not "Bible-believing true Christians" as you, yourself, have defined the term.



Is this list based on which church they officially belonged to, or their actual beliefs? Many of our founders had roots in various denominations, but were in fact Unitarians.

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." -- General Smedley Butler: War is a Racket (1935)

"War is mankind's most tragic and stupid folly; to seek or advise its deliberate provocation is a black crime against all men. Though you follow the trade of the warrior, you do so in the spirit of Washington — not of Genghis Khan. For Americans, only threat to our way of life justifies resort to conflict." - General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower: Graduation Exercises at the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, USA at 3 June 1947
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 1:16PM #46
amcolph
Posts: 18,004
[QUOTE=TPaine;1020833]Is this list based on which church they officially belonged to, or their actual beliefs? Many of our founders had roots in various denominations, but were in fact Unitarians.[/QUOTE]

The churches they 'officially' belonged to, of course.

Indeed, I tend to side with your opinion rather than Friend!'s unsupported assertion that they were closet Fundamentalists.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 1:18PM #47
TPaine
Posts: 9,427

Friend! wrote:

The historic Christians churches were true the faith back then.  Only about 80 years later or so did they start the slide into secularism and inclusivism.  The founders were mostly born again, Bible-beleiving Christians who enjoyed and reveled in their love relationship with God through His Son, Jesus Christ.


We're still looking for evidence from a mainline source (not David Barton or his sycophants) that support your allegation. Are you including the Roman Catholic Church to which two of the founders belonged as Christian?

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." -- General Smedley Butler: War is a Racket (1935)

"War is mankind's most tragic and stupid folly; to seek or advise its deliberate provocation is a black crime against all men. Though you follow the trade of the warrior, you do so in the spirit of Washington — not of Genghis Khan. For Americans, only threat to our way of life justifies resort to conflict." - General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower: Graduation Exercises at the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, USA at 3 June 1947
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 1:21PM #48
amcolph
Posts: 18,004
[QUOTE=Friend!;1020805]The historic Christians churches were true the faith back then.  Only about 80 years later or so did they start the slide into secularism and inclusivism.  The founders were mostly born again, Bible-beleiving Christians who enjoyed and reveled in their love relationship with God through His Son, Jesus Christ.[/QUOTE]

Fatuous, self-serving revisionism.  For shame, Friend!.  Nothing but humbug!

Let us see your evidence that the Founders were closet Fundamentalist Protestants!
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 3:27PM #49
Summer813
Posts: 325
[QUOTE=DrWhite;1020332][QUOTE=amcolph]
the Christian founding fathers belonged, for the most part, to denominations which would make them, by your own definition, "fake" Christians.

Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, there were

28 Episcopalians

8 Presbyterians

7 Congregationalists

2 Lutherans

2 Dutch Reformed

2 Methodists

2 Roman Catholics

3 Deists

1 Unknown.
[/QUOTE]
All except the bottom four are Christian denominations.[/QUOTE]
Excuse me, are you trying to say that the bottom four individuals are not Christians, or are you saying that the bottom four religious identities listed are not? Just want to make sure we're crystal clear, here.
Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2009 - 7:56AM #50
Drwhite
Posts: 309
Deists are not "Christians" as they do not, generally, believe in the supernatural elements of the Christian faith. Simply put, they don't believe in miracles. Thomas Jefferson wrote his own version of the King James that left out all the miracles of Christ. So, technically, deists are not Christians.
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