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Switch to Forum Live View The Separation of Church and State
6 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2009 - 5:31PM #31
Summer813
Posts: 325
[QUOTE=Al-Fatihah;1003452]Response: Very informative. I agree with everything. But I also believe that despite the idea of separating church and state the founding fathers still wanted to create a christian government or at least a government based on the belief of God which is why the US currency says "in God we trust" and people are sworn in on the bible. Even the pledge of allegiance says "one nation under God".[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you missed it: as I noted earlier, people are NOT required to be sworn in on a Bible or on ANY sacred text.

So there goes one of your arguments.

Secondly, you need to go back and read what TPaine posted regarding the "in God we trust" on money, and thirdly, the Pledge of Allegiance wasn't even written until after all the Founders were dead, and it did NOT contain any mention of God at all. That was added during the 1950's in response to the whole "Red Scare" silliness, as it was thought that anyone who subscribed to Communism (and therefore to atheism, or so it was thought) would not be willing to say it and so the Pledge could be used as a tool to ferret out secret Communists... or whatever the McCarthyist thinking of the day was.
Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2009 - 10:27AM #32
amcolph
Posts: 18,288
[QUOTE=Friend!;1013393]I agree.  No one wants a theocracy, Christian or otherwise.  Our Christian founding fathers founded a religion-friendly governmnet based in part upon the Bible and Christian values.  That is not the same.  They voted their values.  So do we true Christians who continue their legacy today.  :)[/QUOTE]

That's all very fine, Friend!, but by your standards, the majority of 'our Christian founding fathers' were fake Christians--that is, they were only pretending to be Christians.

Not much of a legacy for you, I'd say.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2009 - 3:46PM #33
TPaine
Posts: 9,491

Friend! wrote:

No, you are ignorant of the deeply moving and sincere, life-changing ongoing daily personal walk with God of the founders.  Did you know most of them had attended seminary? And that they chose to pray when they made major decisions, devoting a whole day in prayer at the constitutional convention?  Or that they refered to the Bible and God's law in law-making?  Or that they started a Sunday School in the first Capitol Building?  Or that George Washington maintained a prayer diary?  Hardly the work of those who didn't take their faith and the Bible seriously.



Evidence, please

Friend! wrote:

How wonderful that we can elect similar great men today!



Yeppers! I'm quite happy we elected President Obama. Now we can see the elimination of some of the religious bigotry we've suffered for the past 8 years under born-again Bush.

Friend! wrote:

Jesus Christ is God, and the Bible is His rule book for human living.  I celebrate the wisdom of the Christian founding fathers.  Now what's all this dishonest talk of a theocracy?  HeHe


This is pure proselytizing that our Unitarian Founding Fathers would not approve of. HeHe

"The right of voting for representatives is the primary right by which other rights are protected. To take away this right is to reduce a man to slavery, for slavery consists in being subject to the will of another, and he that has not a vote in the election of representatives is in this case." Thomas Paine:
Dissertation on First Principles of Government (July 1795)
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2009 - 3:59PM #34
TPaine
Posts: 9,491

Friend! wrote:

Oh, and I omitted the most important part.  The founders often wrote in their diaries and papers of their living dynamic relationship with God through Christ... not a static dead church membership but a living faith.  The Bible calls it being "born again."



Once again we have a claim with nothing to back it up. Before long I expect we'll be hearing that Thomas Paine was a "born again" Christian and the Age of Reason was written to support the Bible.

Friend! wrote:

This is the source for America's greatness... Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ chose the United States for a special role in history.  I thank Him for that.



The bovine excrement is getting so deep in here Rotor Rooter can't handle it alone!!

"The right of voting for representatives is the primary right by which other rights are protected. To take away this right is to reduce a man to slavery, for slavery consists in being subject to the will of another, and he that has not a vote in the election of representatives is in this case." Thomas Paine:
Dissertation on First Principles of Government (July 1795)
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2009 - 4:04PM #35
amcolph
Posts: 18,288
[QUOTE=Friend!;1018948]No, you are ignorant of the deeply moving and sincere, life-changing ongoing daily personal walk with God of the founders.  Did you know most of them had attended seminary? And that they chose to pray when they made major decisions, devoting a whole day in prayer at the constitutional convention?  Or that they refered to the Bible and God's law in law-making?  Or that they started a Sunday School in the first Capitol Building?  Or that George Washington maintained a prayer diary?  Hardly the work of those who didn't take their faith and the Bible seriously. 

How wonderful that we can elect similar great men today! 

Jesus Christ is God, and the Bible is His rule book for human living.  I celebrate the wisdom of the Christian founding fathers.  Now what's all this dishonest talk of a theocracy?  HeHe[/QUOTE]


the Christian founding fathers belonged, for the most part, to denominations which would make them, by your own definition, "fake" Christians.

Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, there were

28 Episcopalians

8 Presbyterians

7 Congregationalists

2 Lutherans

2 Dutch Reformed

2 Methodists

2 Roman Catholics

3 Deists

1 Unknown.

Of those, only the Presbyterians and the Dutch Reformed can be, by any stretch of the imagination, termed "Bible-believing true Christians," and that is giving you the benefit of the doubt, as "Bible-believing" Christianity  (ie, Fundamentalism) had not yet been invented.

All that fanciful blather about how pious they were doesn't come into it.  The fact of the matter is that by virtue of their theology at least 80% of the founding fathers were not "Bible-believing true Christians" as you, yourself, have defined the term.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2009 - 8:59PM #36
Thaklaar1
Posts: 493
To be fair, back then the Methodists probably would have made it.  As would some of the Congregationalists, most likely.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2009 - 10:29PM #37
TPaine
Posts: 9,491

Thaklaar1 wrote:

To be fair, back then the Methodists probably would have made it.  As would some of the Congregationalists, most likely.


Possibly the Methodists would have at that time, but not today, and almost certainly the Congregationalists would have. The Baptists, on the other hand, were strong supporters of Jefferson's & Madison's successful effort to separate church & state, and at the time were not considered "real" Christians.

"The right of voting for representatives is the primary right by which other rights are protected. To take away this right is to reduce a man to slavery, for slavery consists in being subject to the will of another, and he that has not a vote in the election of representatives is in this case." Thomas Paine:
Dissertation on First Principles of Government (July 1795)
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2009 - 10:35PM #38
amcolph
Posts: 18,288
[QUOTE=Thaklaar1;1019609]To be fair, back then the Methodists probably would have made it.  As would some of the Congregationalists, most likely.[/QUOTE]


Very likely, and the Presbyterians were staunch Calvinists, which is not quite the same thing,

but the doctrine of literal inerrancy (an essential feature of "Bible-believing" Christianity) was framed up for the Evangelicals at Princeton Seminary.

My main point is,

that if one wants to make this a Christian nation, or for the state to offer Christianity and Christians different or preferencial treatment...

One must define Chrisitanity, deciding who is and who is not a Christian.

So far, the definitions on offer are either uselessly vague or narrow and self-serving.

Personally, I prefer the 'free exercise' clause as it stands, where each person decides for himself what faith (if any) he adheres to, and does not predjudice himself by his decision.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 12:55AM #39
Summer813
Posts: 325
[QUOTE=Friend!;1018956]The founders often wrote in their diaries and papers of their living dynamic relationship with God through Christ... not a static dead church membership but a living faith.  The Bible calls it being "born again."[/QUOTE]
Please provide concrete examples of this, from unbiased sources, for more than six of the Founders. I'll wait while you go get that (though I don't promise to hold my breath).
Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 12:58AM #40
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Summer813 wrote:

Please provide concrete examples of this, from unbiased sources, for more than six of the Founders. I'll wait while you go get that (though I don't promise to hold my breath).




I have the Autobiography of Ben Franklin and I know its not there-and the letters from John Adams to Abigail and know its not there and the Federalist papers and its not there-its not in Jefferson's works or Madison's

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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