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Switch to Forum Live View The Myth Of THe Surge
6 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2008 - 12:20PM #11
platoonleader
Posts: 1,148
The invasion and occupation of Iraq was indeed "bright shining lie" (I do not expect that you will know the significance of that phrase). If you want to call it immoral...certainly. But DO NOT confuse the war on terror or global jihad that was declared on the US and western civilization with the initial invasion and occupation of Iraq.

But the invasion of Iraq did create a meeting engagement. The enemies of civilization have coalaeced there to fight America. The Iranians are or were there. The Syrians are or were there, Hezbollah is there, militant Whahibis are there HAMAS is there. Al Qaeda was there. All the belligerants in the very legitmate global jihad and or war on terror were or are there to fight the United States...Iraq is merely a battlespace chosen by Radical Islam to fight Western Civilization generally and the United Staes specifically.

The point is: that bright shining lie became an engagement that the US could not and can not afford to lose or surrender. YOU are indicative of the loss of, or lack of national will to win a conflict ...America can not afford to lose.

The surge worked...because Al Qeada and this "consortium" jihadists have been "put in check" by more boots on the ground and the co-opting and peeling off of support to certain groups accomplished by General Patrious.

Now Al Qaeda, Iran and HAMAS have found anther vacuum like Afghanistan to operate from...Gaza and ultimately West Bank...if we permit them.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2008 - 12:24PM #12
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,140
I don’t agree with Sherri m often and  her sources are in my mind  of questionable value.    Ken I would not call rolling stone anti American. It does question the establishment on many issues but that is what a free press should do and why a free press is important.  I do not think war should be used unless necessary and then it should be done a quickly and applied with vigor.   For me Iraq was th wrong place the wrong time for the US to get involved in a war.  However we are there.  The surge is working in the military sense, it is suppressing the violence.   However, we, the citizenry, were sold it on the need to establish a political base. That has not happened. Iraq is separating.  The entire war has been we are doing this but it is not what we set out to do. The goals reached are not the goals set.  George W Bush created a SNAFU.  To stay is to keep getting Solders killed and maimed for no good reason other than GWB F****D  up.     I do not discount Docwitchy’s  knowledge  but I remember my View of Vietnam was about the angle of movement between two sandbags or rocks or piles of dirt and about 200 to a 1000 meters out, at most usually smaller.   My view for the larger AO was through a radar screen, a night vision device, map coordinates or out the tail ramp of a C 130 or C 24.  It is n only through 35 years of reading study and conversations with Veterans have I seen a bigger view.   In most of my conversations with Vets, I learned of a small view of the war over a barrel of an M16 or walk through a jungle or the fog of fright .    Right now I do not believe that anything we do in Iraq will fix the damage  done to them or us.  The best we can do or hope for is to stop the death done to us and by us.  Just my thoughts and opinions
“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2008 - 2:30PM #13
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492
The surge, at the most, may have caused a temporary reduction in violence and make it appear as if things in Iraq are improving. But political issues have not been resolved by the government, the Occupying force has allowed a ground invasion of Iraq by Turkey, and the Occupying forces have allowed Turkey to attack Kurdish civilians in Iraq. The country remains unstable and the condition of life for its people continues to be worse than it was under Saddam.

We created the mess in Iraq. We have no ability to fix it. We should leave. The presence of occupiers there only intensifies the violence and conflict. When those occupiers invaded their country based on lies, how can anyone
there have any trust in the US government? How can someone with no credibility do anything positive there?

We don't care about the Iraqi people, we never did, and we should leave.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2008 - 2:43PM #14
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848
One must be careful when one sets out to play eschatological games that the game does not bite one in the eschaton.
Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2008 - 3:55PM #15
platoonleader
Posts: 1,148
scatological...yes indeed...Ms. Munnerlyn's posts!
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2008 - 12:39PM #16
johndavid23
Posts: 4,324
Sherri, an excellent analysis,

The surge is "working" because the US is paying off several militias to cease fighting temporarily.  That means, the US taxpayers are paying for the militias to regroup and rearm themselves - solely for US political propaganda purposes - so that it can temporarily appear that the surge worked.  Of course, all this ends and the sh87 hits the fan.  It is a very cynical way to do a war - but, then, the whole downward spiral was very cynical, built on lies.

ken displays his usual bias in denouncing news sources which do not trumpet his bias.

pl,
Of course, the US military could go anywhere and begin its imprisonments and tortures and slaughters of civilians and opposition would arise:  then, politicians could demonize those patriots who defend their country from illegal foreign invasion and call them "enemies of civilization" and other newspeak.
The point is that the shining lie, when unveiled, notes that the US chose to invade Iraq, unprovoked and without reason - not the other way around as you put it.

The "war on terror" was REALLY a war against 16 dead Saudis who commandeered three planes with their box-cutters. The US military has shown NO will to capture their ringleader (as if they were ordered not to).
At an estimated cost of $7 trillion to the US taxpayers, BushCo has utterly failed in its mission, and the investigation of BushCo's complicity in the events of 9/11 are still unexamined - there is no reasonable explanation for BushCo's dismissal of the over 100 warnings about the impending catastrophe.

The problem is that the QUAGMIRE is expanding, and will continue to do so as long as inappropriate means are applied.  Religious differences are never settled by lengthy slaughters (genocide).  The attempts to create and expand a world war by the neocons have been a disaster for all.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2008 - 12:42PM #17
johndavid23
Posts: 4,324
Sherri, an excellent analysis,

The surge is "working" because the US is paying off several militias to cease fighting temporarily.  That means, the US taxpayers are paying for the militias to regroup and rearm themselves - solely for US political propaganda purposes - so that it can temporarily appear that the surge worked.  Of course, all this ends and the sh87 hits the fan.  It is a very cynical way to do a war - but, then, the whole downward spiral was very cynical, built on lies.

post #6 displays its usual bias in denouncing news sources which do not trumpet the poster's narrow bias.

pl,
Of course, the US military could go anywhere and begin its imprisonments and tortures and slaughters of civilians and opposition would arise:  then, politicians could demonize those patriots who defend their country from illegal foreign invasion and call them "enemies of civilization" and other newspeak.
The point is that the shining lie, when unveiled, notes that the US chose to invade Iraq, unprovoked and without reason - not the other way around as you put it.

The "war on terror" was REALLY a war against 16 dead Saudis who commandeered three planes with their box-cutters. The US military has shown NO will to capture their ringleader (as if they were ordered not to).
At an estimated cost of $7 trillion to the US taxpayers, BushCo has utterly failed in its mission, and the investigation of BushCo's complicity in the events of 9/11 are still unexamined - there is no reasonable explanation for BushCo's dismissal of the over 100 warnings about the impending catastrophe.

The problem is that the QUAGMIRE is expanding, and will continue to do so as long as inappropriate means are applied.  Religious differences are never settled by lengthy slaughters (genocide).  The attempts to create and expand a world war by the neocons have been a disaster for all.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2008 - 12:51PM #18
platoonleader
Posts: 1,148
lol Dear John

I never claimed the US attack on Iraq was anything but unprovoked. You need to read more closely....I said it created a meeting engagement that America must win
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2008 - 12:54PM #19
platoonleader
Posts: 1,148
Dear John

Re your comments re post 6 I confess I haven't the fainst idea what you are whining about....But I am sure you don't either...peace on you too
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2008 - 1:14PM #20
platoonleader
Posts: 1,148
Mr. John David does make two excellent points: Yes General Patrious is co-opting, buying off, peeling off support from disparate militias. Yes the possiblity of it back-firing or a some blow back is very real.

But I do think the General has looked at the trade off in terms of violence and giving the Iraqis time to politcally and militarily getting it together...verus future violence

Mr. John David raises the idea of the military involved in essentially a religious conflict...I think that is exactly what he NOT doing in Iraq.

The war in Iraq is NOT a quagmire...yet and I don't think it will be. Al Qeada, Iran et al have  moved ops and the global jihad from Iraq on...to I think Gaza and West Bank
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