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Switch to Forum Live View Do not support the troops
6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 4:02PM #51
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303
Rick, thanks for your answer!

I see that American patriots are proud of different things than members of a 'Ndrangheta clan, yes. But the feelings are the same (in-group favouritism and out-group denigration) and much too often, also the method is the same (loyalty to the degree of denying reason and rationality).

I don't think patriotism is automatically foolish. But foolish is what foolish does.
E.g., most of Bush's presidency was foolish -- who am I to tell whether that renders every US patriot foolish?
It 100% depends on whether the patriot justifies Bush's foolishness and goes along with it, or not.

The backbone of a successful country is not patriotism, but core values that express what people are convinced of and that inspire a significant part of the people to make a difference in this world. Patriotism is like the dead crust that develops on such a lively core over time.

I think your idea is spot-on that "What some ... are proposing would bring the America to its destruction. Which seems to be the goal of anti-American philosophy. Destroy organization & leadership with individual & mob rule. Tribal warlords, the Muslim controlling one area, the KKK another area, the Branch Dividian another area, etc.

The polarisers in your society, the Coulters and the Cheneys, the swiftboaters, they do exactly this: divide, partition, and let the mob spit on character. I think you identify the problem well, but pick more of the poison to get a cure, Rick. It won't help.

I share with you the generally good impression of America, maybe despite better knowledge of the recent decades. America has been a force of good in my part of the world, for a long time, and I am most grateful for that. But America is losing it, and has been on a path to perdition for seven lost years now, or more, depending on where you look. Sold for good to special interest groups and spinmeisters.

Since November 2004, I do not believe anymore in the US ability to re-invent itself.
I had hopes that America was able to correct a mistake it had made, but these hopes were disappointed.
It's up to you to prove me wrong.
tl;dr
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 4:10PM #52
lauramushkat
Posts: 625
The men and women of the armed forces are now volunteers.  When they go over to fight a war for us-even if the "us" decided to disagree about the war-they are doing that which they are being paid for-similar to a lawyer who is paid by a client the lawyer may not agree with.

Most people who are fighting I do not think joined because of principle in believing in the war.  Many may still be in who joined before it even started.  They were either patriotic, or in need of a job, or wanted help to pay for college or a combination of these.

Now because they volunteerred they are stuck.  If they had not volunterred your kids and mine would be drafted and fighting over there.  If for no other reason except to thank them for what they are doing so your kids do not have to they should have your support.

You do not have to vote to continue the war or do anything else positive to help the war continue.  You do have to support the troops I feel.

Hugs,
Laura
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 4:44PM #53
newyawka
Posts: 1,772
does defending yourself cover being really into killing people and laughing about it and wanting to do it again?

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2007/ … again.html

what would jesus do?
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 5:02PM #54
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

Laura]If for no other reason except to thank them for what they are doing so your kids do not have to they should have your support.


I appreciate the idea to be thankful for others not picking my job, but doing theirs.
It's called division of labour, Laura.
But why would they "need support" anymore than the garbage col wrote:

If for no other reason except to thank them for what they are doing so your kids do not have to they should have your support.[/quote]
I appreciate the idea to be thankful for others not picking my job, but doing theirs.
It's called division of labour, Laura.
But why would they "need support" anymore than the garbage collector?

tl;dr
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 6:23PM #55
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,206
[QUOTE=CharikIeia;134732]... I don't think patriotism is automatically foolish. But foolish is what foolish does.
E.g., most of Bush's presidency was foolish ...[/quote]

No argument regarding the President's actions - and you know well that there are many in this country who happen to share your opinion about this - but soldiers are not permitted to refuse orders just because some folks are of the opinion that they are foolish.

[QUOTE=CharikIeia;134732]...The backbone of a successful country is not patriotism, but core values that express what people are convinced of and that inspire a significant part of the people to make a difference in this world...[/quote]

And we as American citizens need to ensure our Government is living up to those core values, and to use our rights to criticize and protest when our Government isn't living up to those values.

But again, the military does not have the LUXURY of that sort of expression -- they are required to obey the LAWFUL orders of their leadership regardless whether or not they agree with them...[/quote]

[QUOTE=CharikIeia;134732]...I think your idea is spot-on that "What some ... are proposing would bring the America to its destruction. Which seems to be the goal of anti-American philosophy. Destroy organization & leadership with individual & mob rule. Tribal warlords, the Muslim controlling one area, the KKK another area, the Branch Dividian another area, etc....[/quote]

Our military is NOT a racist organization like the KKK, nor a mindless cult like the Branch Davidians.  Our armed force is NOTHING like the lawless Islamic radical murderers.  Our society - like yours - needs an armed force that will will respond to where it's government directs it.  Both Germany and the US would cease to exist as a country without its armed forces, becoming fodder to other nations.  Our leadership is responsible for employing our armed forces wisely, and if used unwisely, endangers our freedoms -- but if our military is able to pick and choose what orders to obey, the next step is to supplant civilian authority  -- and that is also dangerous to our freedoms.

[QUOTE=CharikIeia;134732]...The polarisers in your society, the Coulters and the Cheneys, the swiftboaters, they do exactly this: divide, partition, and let the mob spit on character. I think you identify the problem well, but pick more of the poison to get a cure, [B][/quote]

Then protest against the leadership -- I have absolutely no problem with that.  But to revile your soldiers, call them "babykillers," and encourage them to desert is not only unacceptable, but stupid too, as one is targeting the wrong people.

[QUOTE=CharikIeia;134732]...I share with you the generally good impression of America, maybe despite better knowledge of the recent decades. America has been a force of good in my part of the world, for a long time, and I am most grateful for that...[/quote]

You're welcome.

[QUOTE=CharikIeia;134732]...But America is losing it, and has been on a path to perdition for seven lost years now, or more, depending on where you look. Sold for good to special interest groups and spinmeisters...[/quote]

A rather broad brush there Char -- but it is an opinion you are entitled to.

[QUOTE=CharikIeia;134732]...Since November 2004, I do not believe anymore in the US ability to re-invent itself.  I had hopes that America was able to correct a mistake it had made, but these hopes were disappointed.
It's up to you to prove me wrong...[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry you are disappointed in the American people.  It WAS a close election, however, and there is no such thing as a stereotypical "American" anymore than there is a stereotypical "German..."
"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 6:25PM #56
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,206
[QUOTE=CharikIeia;134885]...I appreciate the idea to be thankful for others not picking my job, but doing theirs.
It's called division of labour...But why would they "need support" anymore than the garbage collector...?[/QUOTE]

Because garbagemen are not asked to DIE for their country, Char, but our military members are...
"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 6:44PM #57
arabianwitch
Posts: 669
While I don't like being compared to a garbageman, I have worn a t-shirt with a logo of an American infantryman crouching and firing with the caption that says, 'taking out the garbage'. It's a very popular item among my circle of friends.

I'd love to find one that shows the AH-64D I fly doing the same thing with the same caption.

It's not a bad analogy in some ways. A lot of what we do can be described as sanitation work after all. Or fumigation, pest removal, vermin extermination...I need to stop now before I lose control of myself!

I'm not sure if the garbageman comment was made with an insult in mind, but if so, it didn't work, obviously.

Salaam all,, and hi Mylons :)

Aisha
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 7:00PM #58
newyawka
Posts: 1,772
hey! killing people!! real joke stuff!!
is that your 'moderate islamic' idea of "salaam"?
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 8:31PM #59
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,206
[QUOTE=arabianwitch;135165]...I don't like being compared to a garbageman...I'm not sure if the garbageman comment was made with an insult in mind, but if so, it didn't work..[/quote]

Nah!  In Deutschland, I'm sure soldaten there are COMPLIMENTED when compared with Müllmänner   ;)

[QUOTE=arabianwitch;135165]...Salaam all,, and hi Mylons :) [/quote]

Hello right back atcha, and hows the hubby and the lil' uns...?
"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 11:18PM #60
rangerken
Posts: 15,789
Newyawka, Arabianwitch is the daughter of a retired general officer (American Muslim), the wife of a colonel (who I once commanded so I know him and her. I was at their wedding), a west point graduate, and unless something has changed has two brothers in the army, and a sister and brother-in-law in the air force. She is an American who happens to be a Muslim...just like I'm an American who happens to be a Christian, etc. And that T-shirt she mentioned is very well known. I have one myself. So does my son. It's most expressive of the attitude of our fighting men, and women who, I remind you, come in all colors and religions...but the US Army tag on their uniforms doesn't differentiate. I wonder if you understand.

As for killing being a joke...it's not...but it is, properly, viewed at times as taking out garbage, particularly when the garbage likes to do viedoed beheadings, suicide bombings of civilians and fly planes into office buildings.

So if you think the picture on the T-shirt, and the caption is a joke, you are very wrong. It is very, very serious and represents a real mindset. Which, needless to say, I thoroughly support.

And that is no joke.

Ken
Conservative, Libertarian, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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