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Switch to Forum Live View "In God We Trust" Removed?
7 years ago  ::  Mar 14, 2008 - 7:03PM #71
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=Xristocharis;344568]Which "God" is it that America trusts in?

The only God I recognize is the Trinity. [/QUOTE]


  Thats Him...





[[QUOTE=Xristocharis;344568]B]Congress shall make no law[/B].... period.

-Jon[/QUOTE]

    That isnt what the Constitution says. There is a quite a bit to the Establishment clause besides those five words. Don't truncate my Constitution or add words like "period". You dont say "period" when some liberal sues a schoolboard though the subject is celarly "Congress" do you? Do you say "it says "Congress...period"?
   I think I see..its ok to attack the exercise of religion by expanding the word "Congress" to include a city council...and to make "establishment" mean "mentioning God".?
   How does your "period" fit in there?
   So lets put it this way...the Treasury is an Executive Branch department. If the President orders the motto included is that Ok?
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 14, 2008 - 7:08PM #72
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=TPaine;344892]Excellent post Xris, Jefferson couldn't have stated it any better. I think many of us forget that Christians who believe as you do make up the vast majority of the faith. Maybe we forget because the Christian Taliban on the extreme right makes all the noise, and we feel we have to speak up to defend our rights. We are fortunate to live in a country where it is possible to believe or not believe as we see fit. I suggest that any who think this is wrong should live in Iran for awhile so they can see what real government supported religious intolerance is like.[/QUOTE]


  There you go Mr Common Sense. Go to Iran, try it a while. Then come back her eand compare our dastardly act of creating a National Motto that expresses our Christian beliefs. OR you could compare Iran to, say, 1950's America when they still..shiver..prayed in shcool. I am sure it is equally horrible.
   SO whats the difference TPaine? You live under a Christian Taliban. Go to Iran and see how much you long for the Christian Taliban. I give you 15 minutes....if yous till have your head (and it isnt bent towards mecca )
  A word of advice...Thomas Paine was a rabble rouser and he didnt mind using hyperbole when he needed to. But he would never have stooped that low.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 10:00AM #73
TPaine
Posts: 9,339

Creedofcrusades wrote:

There you go Mr Common Sense. Go to Iran, try it a while. Then come back her eand compare our dastardly act of creating a National Motto that expresses our Christian beliefs. OR you could compare Iran to, say, 1950's America when they still..shiver..prayed in shcool. I am sure it is equally horrible.
   SO whats the difference TPaine? You live under a Christian Taliban. Go to Iran and see how much you long for the Christian Taliban. I give you 15 minutes....if yous till have your head (and it isnt bent towards mecca )
  A word of advice...Thomas Paine was a rabble rouser and he didnt mind using hyperbole when he needed to. But he would never have stooped that low.



Why should the National Motto of the country that's as much mine as it is yours express your Christian beliefs, and not my Deistic ones. Further, where have I ever said that this country is ruled by a Christian Taliban? As much as you would like it to be that way, it's not how it is. We have a Constitution that is the supreme law of the land, and that Constitution ensures that all Americans have the right to believe or not believe in the manner they find best suits them. I'm sorry you find that concept unacceptable, but if you can't live with it maybe you should be the one to go to Iran.
I am curious, however. When you witness for your lord, do you express the same condescending attitude and petty insults you use here?  If so it's only civility to inform you that such an attitude is not the best way to gain converts, but it does a marvelous job of showing how petty and intolerant some Christians can be.

"It is always to be taken for granted, that those who oppose an equality of rights never mean the exclusion should take place on themselves." -- Thomas Paine: Dissertations on First Principles of Government (July 7, 1795)
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 19, 2008 - 12:56AM #74
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=TPaine;364991]Why should the National Motto of the country that's as much mine as it is yours express your Christian beliefs, and not my Deistic ones. Further, where have I ever said that this country is ruled by a Christian Taliban? As much as you would like it to be that way, it's not how it is. We have a Constitution that is the supreme law of the land, and that Constitution ensures that all Americans have the right to believe or not believe in the manner they find best suits them. I'm sorry you find that concept unacceptable, but if you can't live with it maybe you should be the one to go to Iran. .[/QUOTE]

  Then come right out and say what you mean. Were you implying that "In God We Trust" equates to Iran's system of theocracy? Were you implying that Evangelical Christians who vote are imposing on you a system as heinous as Iran? Or were you speaking of some small splinter group of Americans and trying to tar a much larger unrelated group..again?
   Its easy to make vague jabs and shrill denunciations of some shadowy group which you hope will transfer to a larger group. But you dont allow yourself to be pinned down on it. Until now. The people I want to see elected are Republicans. The groups I support and work with are the Republican Party, the NRA, the American Family Association, my Southern Baptist denomination and various anti abortion groups. You know...the people who elected the last President.
   So man up and put it on the table. Are these the "taliban" you are speaking of who make you prefer Iran?


[QUOTE=TPaine;364991]I am curious, however. When you witness for your lord, do you express the same condescending attitude and petty insults you use here?  If so it's only civility to inform you that such an attitude is not the best way to gain converts, but it does a marvelous job of showing how petty and intolerant some Christians can be.[/QUOTE]

  Yeah..that damned "some" :) So you think I should troll for converts on a chat board? And why is that?
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 19, 2008 - 2:40PM #75
TPaine
Posts: 9,339

Creedofcrusades wrote:

Then come right out and say what you mean. Were you implying that "In God We Trust" equates to Iran's system of theocracy? Were you implying that Evangelical Christians who vote are imposing on you a system as heinous as Iran? Or were you speaking of some small splinter group of Americans and trying to tar a much larger unrelated group..again?



Obviously I don't equate putting "In God We Trust"  on our money to Iran's theocracy.  Nor do I believe that voting Christians  (with the exception of a few radicals) want to impose a theocracy. I do believe, however, that many Evangelical Christians do have an agenda. They want to reinstate organized prayer in public schools (as long as those prayers are Christian), they oppose gay rights, they want their religious sayings posted in public buildings ("Allahu  akhbar!" would not be acceptable), they want public funding of their private schools, and they oppose abortion and stem cell research.

Creedofcrusades wrote:

Its easy to make vague jabs and shrill denunciations of some shadowy group which you hope will transfer to a larger group. But you dont allow yourself to be pinned down on it. Until now. The people I want to see elected are Republicans. The groups I support and work with are the Republican Party, the NRA, the American Family Association, my Southern Baptist denomination and various anti abortion groups. You know...the people who elected the last President.



I want to see the ideas Rushdoony, North, Einwechter, McAllister, et.al. transfered to a larger group? You must be kidding! That would be the last thing I'd want to see happen. You say you are a Republican, but I bet you don't support the Log Cabin Republicans. I also support the NRA. I think they do a marvelous job with their firearm training and gun safety courses. However, I would think that Gun Owners of America would be more in your line than the NRA. As a Deist I have no interest in supporting the AFA or SBC, since they do not agree with my beliefs. I'll agree that you and your ilk elected our current President and look what it got us: an unnecessary war, inflation, recession, need I go on?

Creedofcrusades wrote:

So man up and put it on the table. Are these the "taliban" you are speaking of who make you prefer Iran?



Why would someone who supports church/state separation prefer Iran? I have never said the the majority of Christians (or Muslims for that matter) are the taliban, but all religions have their extremists and Christianity is no exception. Or have you forgotten the Inquisition and that wonderful book of Christian love, The Malleus Maleficarum?

Creedofcrusades wrote:

Yeah..that damned "some" :) So you think I should troll for converts on a chat board? And why is that?



I never suggested that you do so, but since you troll here anyway, why not do so to your advantage?;)

"It is always to be taken for granted, that those who oppose an equality of rights never mean the exclusion should take place on themselves." -- Thomas Paine: Dissertations on First Principles of Government (July 7, 1795)
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2008 - 11:48AM #76
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=TPaine;368049]Obviously I don't equate putting "In God We Trust"  on our money to Iran's theocracy.  Nor do I believe that voting Christians  (with the exception of a few radicals) want to impose a theocracy. I do believe, however, that many Evangelical Christians do have an agenda. They want to reinstate organized prayer in public schools (as long as those prayers are Christian), they oppose gay rights, they want their religious sayings posted in public buildings ("Allahu  akhbar!" would not be acceptable), they want public funding of their private schools, and they oppose abortion and stem cell research. [/QUOTE]


  Yes you are correct for the most part. Nothing secretive or insidious there. Christians deserve representation like anyone else and they deserve participation in the political process in order to advance their goals...just like any other group.


[QUOTE=TPaine;368049]I want to see the ideas Rushdoony, North, Einwechter, McAllister, et.al. transfered to a larger group? You must be kidding! That would be the last thing I'd want to see happen. You say you are a Republican, but I bet you don't support the Log Cabin Republicans. I also support the NRA. I think they do a marvelous job with their firearm training and gun safety courses. However, I would think that Gun Owners of America would be more in your line than the NRA. As a Deist I have no interest in supporting the AFA or SBC, since they do not agree with my beliefs. I'll agree that you and your ilk elected our current President and look what it got us: an unnecessary war, inflation, recession, need I go on?[/QUOTE]


   No I despise the Log Cabin Republicans. I believe they are Democrats actually. I am a member of the NRA and not the Gun Owners of America because I have tried to limit the groups I give my time and money to. I am satisfied with the NRA.
   Now please explain the actions of Bush which brought on inflation and rcession. Be very careful and remember "all money bills must originate in the House of Representatives".  The war was and is necessary arguably. So its a matter of opinion.


[QUOTE=TPaine;368049]Why would someone who supports church/state separation prefer Iran? I have never said the the majority of Christians (or Muslims for that matter) are the taliban, but all religions have their extremists and Christianity is no exception. Or have you forgotten the Inquisition and that wonderful book of Christian love, The Malleus Maleficarum?[/QUOTE]


   YOU mentioned Iran in comparison. Not me. I think you should tone down your hyperbole and not demonize a majority of the country.

[QUOTE=TPaine;368049]I never suggested that you do so, but since you troll here anyway, why not do so to your advantage?;)[/QUOTE]

    I believe firmly in the seperation of trolling and proslytization and will never attack that wall between them :)
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2008 - 5:43PM #77
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Creedofcrusades wrote:



   No I despise the Log Cabin Republicans. I believe they are Democrats actually.



So, gay people don't deserve lower taxes and a strong military?

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2008 - 11:05PM #78
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=davelaw40;373125]So, gay people don't deserve lower taxes and a strong military?[/QUOTE]


  Everybody deserves those dave but I dont believe Log Cabin has much interest in those virtues. I have dealt with them several times and they exist for one purpose. Better yet, in their words..."

"Why We Exist
Log Cabin Republicans work to make the Republican Party more inclusive, particularly on gay and lesbian issues.  Equality will be impossible to achieve without Republican votes."


   I believe they exist simply to remove those parts of the Republican platform which homosexuals oppose because they believe Republicans are responsible for holding up their agenda. As they say as long as Republicans exist and hold firm to conservative values the gay agenda will ne "impossible".
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2008 - 9:43AM #79
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Creedofcrusades wrote:

Everybody deserves those dave but I dont believe Log Cabin has much interest in those virtues. I have dealt with them several times and they exist for one purpose. Better yet, in their words..."

"Why We Exist
Log Cabin Republicans work to make the Republican Party more inclusive, particularly on gay and lesbian issues.  Equality will be impossible to achieve without Republican votes."


   I believe they exist simply to remove those parts of the Republican platform which homosexuals oppose because they believe Republicans are responsible for holding up their agenda. As they say as long as Republicans exist and hold firm to conservative values the gay agenda will ne "impossible".




Funny, all the log cabin guys I know-are small business or mid-level corporate guys who want their taxes reduced and because they have a higher risk of early death from AIDS are also very concerned about reducing estate taxes

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2008 - 11:45AM #80
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496
Well, you know, Dave, Creed is big on telling other people what they do or do not believe.
So according to him, neither gays nor pagans can subscribe to any Republican values, even fiscal ones.  :rolleyes:
Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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