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Switch to Forum Live View "In God We Trust" Removed?
7 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2008 - 10:29AM #61
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=JudeVerse3;50265]You may have heard in the news that a couple of Post Offices in Texas have
been forced to take down small posters that say "IN GOD WE TRUST," The law,
they say, is being violated.[/QUOTE]


  In God We Trust Is not going anywhere. First of all it is the law...the legal, official expression of our nation's philosophy about who the ultimate source of our freedoms and rights is. Secondly it is something that Americans hold too dear and are too proud of to give up without a huge fight. I know there is always the fear that liberals will go around the will of the people to unelected judges and have it removed. We have lost other cultural and legal rights in that manner. But this has been through the courts already. It was passed by the House and Senate, signed by the President and approved by the federal judiciary twice.
  And as I said people are extremely sensitive to what happens on this issue. The Treasury Department has vowed to fight any efforts to have it removed and I see the motto hanging in my local Post Office in a prominent place with no complaints.
  When the new dollar coins came out recently, the horrendously ugly and unartistic Presidential series, the motto was moved to the rim and there was a huge uproar. The law says every coin must have the National Motto and the mint fulfilled the letter of the law and saved space by moving it to the rim. The mint is now working on moving it back to the face of the coins because of the huge number of complaints. And remember the Great Seal includes "Annuit Coeptis"..He has blessed our undertaking.
  I think the motto is safe for the forseeable future. These emails circulate every now and then and speak to the fear people have of their rights being overturned.
  I also find it interesting that the other great English speaking country and bastion of freedom, England, sports the motto "Dieu et mon droit" ( God and my right) and Britian's coins include the motto "Dei Gracia" (by the grace of God) on their obverse.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2008 - 4:05PM #62
TPaine
Posts: 9,430

JudeVerse3 wrote:


I have
a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about having "In God
We Trust" on our money and having God in the pledge of Allegiance.

Could it be that WE just need to take action and tell the 14% to "sit down
and shut up"?

I'm contacting Jay Sekulow at the ACLJ to see if they can fight this (if they aren't already).

Please copy and paste this and mail to all your friends and associates. Thank you.

IN GOD WE TRUST




When I see Christians get so upset about any effort to have In God We Trust removed from American coins I can't help but wonder how they rationalize putting God's name on money with the following:

Mt 22:15    Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
    Mt 22:16    And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
Mt 22:17    Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
    Mt 22:18    But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
    Mt 22:19    Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
    Mt 22:20    And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
    Mt 22:21    They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Mt 22:22    When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." -- General Smedley Butler: War is a Racket (1935)

"War is mankind's most tragic and stupid folly; to seek or advise its deliberate provocation is a black crime against all men. Though you follow the trade of the warrior, you do so in the spirit of Washington — not of Genghis Khan. For Americans, only threat to our way of life justifies resort to conflict." - General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower: Graduation Exercises at the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, USA at 3 June 1947
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 08, 2008 - 11:13AM #63
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=TPaine;339697]When I see Christians get so upset about any effort to have In God We Trust removed from American coins I can't help but wonder how they rationalize putting God's name on money with the following:

Mt 22:15    Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
    Mt 22:16    And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
Mt 22:17    Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
    Mt 22:18    But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
    Mt 22:19    Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
    Mt 22:20    And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
    Mt 22:21    They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Mt 22:22    When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.[/QUOTE]

   I would say you are taking the part of the Pharisees...and seek to entangle. But that aside, if you want to split hairs, the coinage in question belonged to Ceasar. Pay tribute to him with what he owns. American coinage however belongs to the American people. And the American people have proclaimed their trust in God..therefore render to the American People what belongs to the American people. Their faith in God proclaimed on their symbols of sovereignity.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 08, 2008 - 1:33PM #64
JohnQ
Posts: 5,676

Creedofcrusades wrote:

I would say you are taking the part of the Pharisees...and seek to entangle. But that aside, if you want to split hairs, the coinage in question belonged to Ceasar. Pay tribute to him with what he owns. American coinage however belongs to the American people. And the American people have proclaimed their trust in God..therefore render to the American People what belongs to the American people. Their faith in God proclaimed on their symbols of sovereignity.




Now wait a minute.

First, not all citizens of the USA believe in God. 

Second, for those that do, not all believe in the same god.

As a Christian, I think that stamping money and other objects show less than reverence and respect of God.

Peace!                 
------

Christian LIES wed Christian HATE......Begot a child....it’s named Prop 8! 

Supreme Court let it stand.....which means we can vote away the rights of others in our land.

Sad as that may be...it hurts all of us.....not just me.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2008 - 5:56PM #65
Do_unto_others
Posts: 9,157
[QUOTE=Creedofcrusades;340473]American coinage however belongs to the American people. [/QUOTE]

Who are NOT of one mind on the topic. By no means are ALL Americans "christian" let alone members of your particular branch of Christianity. What about those who's God is Buddha? Vishnu? (I mean, here  ARE Americans who are Buddhists and Sikhs, no? What of Muslims? Of Pagans? Of Wiccans" Of Unitarians? Of Jews? Of (good heavens) atheists???

[QUOTE=Creedofcrusades;340473]And the American people have proclaimed their trust in God.[/QUOTE]

When did that happen?

[QUOTE=Creedofcrusades;340473]therefore render to the American People what belongs to the American people.[/QUOTE]

What you really mean is  'render to the CHRISTIAN American People who believe the way and the things I believe what belongs to the CHRISTIAN American people who believe the way and the things I believe' don't you?

[QUOTE=Creedofcrusades;340473]Their faith in God proclaimed on their symbols of sovereignity.[/QUOTE]

No, YOUR faith in God is so proclaimed. 'Their' faith is ignored or trampled on by people who insist like you do that your faith must be imposed on ALL citizens, regardless of THEIR differing beliefs.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2008 - 7:46PM #66
Xristocharis
Posts: 5,051
Which "God" is it that America trusts in?

The only God I recognize is the Trinity.

If that is the God referenced in our national motto then it is a government sanctioned promotion and establishment of religion as it promotes Trinitarian Christianity over and against Unitarian and Oneness Christianity, as well as every other sect that rejects the Trinitarian conception of God; more than that it also promotes Trinitarian Christianity over and against every non-Christian faith in America.

If it's not the Trinity then, I then have to ask what God?

Is it an amorphous, vague, philosophical entity that can be claimed by anyone who happens to be philosophically theist?

Which God? What kind of God?

If it's not the Trinity then it's the promotion of a religion over and against mine and is therefore an establishment of religion that excludes my faith (as well as others).

But if it is the Trinity then its the promotion of a religion over and against others--even if it is my God that is being referenced.

If it is a patriotic symbol, then it is a Nationalist God, an American God--Deus Americanus--which is nothing more than a tribal god, and from where I sit I can have nothing to do with such a god since it is nothing but an idol. I certainly have no more trust in such a god than I do in Zeus or Odin.

And, even if it's a new god--Deus Americanus--then that is still the establishment of religion which violates the First Amendment.

If it's my God, it violates the First Amendment.

If it's a bland, nameless philosophical concept, it still violates the First Amendment.

If it's the American tribal deity, it is still a violation of the First Amendment.

Congress shall make no law.... period.

-Jon
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Hélder Câmara
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2008 - 9:32PM #67
TPaine
Posts: 9,430
Excellent post Xris, Jefferson couldn't have stated it any better. I think many of us forget that Christians who believe as you do make up the vast majority of the faith. Maybe we forget because the Christian Taliban on the extreme right makes all the noise, and we feel we have to speak up to defend our rights. We are fortunate to live in a country where it is possible to believe or not believe as we see fit. I suggest that any who think this is wrong should live in Iran for awhile so they can see what real government supported religious intolerance is like.
"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." -- General Smedley Butler: War is a Racket (1935)

"War is mankind's most tragic and stupid folly; to seek or advise its deliberate provocation is a black crime against all men. Though you follow the trade of the warrior, you do so in the spirit of Washington — not of Genghis Khan. For Americans, only threat to our way of life justifies resort to conflict." - General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower: Graduation Exercises at the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, USA at 3 June 1947
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2008 - 10:49PM #68
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Xristocharis wrote:


Is it an amorphous, vague, philosophical entity that can be claimed by anyone who happens to be philosophically theist?

Which God? What kind of God?

If it's not the Trinity then it's the promotion of a religion over and against mine and is therefore an establishment of religion that excludes my faith (as well as others).

But if it is the Trinity then its the promotion of a religion over and against others--even if it is my God that is being referenced.

If it is a patriotic symbol, then it is a Nationalist God, an American God--Deus Americanus--which is nothing more than a tribal god, and from where I sit I can have nothing to do with such a god since it is nothing but an idol. I certainly have no more trust in such a god than I do in Zeus or Odin.

And, even if it's a new god--Deus Americanus--then that is still the establishment of religion which violates the First Amendment.
....-Jon




and no I don't think it does; Jefferson helped create some of the quasi-religious symblos that morphed into American Civil Religion


in the 1st admendment establisment is a noun; synonomous with denomination-there is no rule against a non-denominational, non building centered Shinto-style National religion-it may be idolatry; bit it ain't unconstitutional-IMHO.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 14, 2008 - 6:35PM #69
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=JohnQ;341691]Now wait a minute.

First, not all citizens of the USA believe in God. 

Second, for those that do, not all believe in the same god.

As a Christian, I think that stamping money and other objects show less than reverence and respect of God.[/QUOTE]

   Not all citizens have to. That isn't the way it works. Not all citizens supported President Bush for President but he is still the President. You may hate Abe Lincoln but he is still on the one cent coin.
   As a Christian American I think the motto shows our respect and reverence. What you will have to do John is be tolerant of our beliefs.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 14, 2008 - 6:49PM #70
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=Do_unto_others;344261]Who are NOT of one mind on the topic. By no means are ALL Americans "christian" let alone members of your particular branch of Christianity. What about those who's God is Buddha? Vishnu? (I mean, here  ARE Americans who are Buddhists and Sikhs, no? What of Muslims? Of Pagans? Of Wiccans" Of Unitarians? Of Jews? Of (good heavens) atheists???.[/QUOTE]


   What about them? There has never been a requirment in our Constitution or law that we are crippled and bound to no action on any item we dont get 100% agreement on. The Americans who have chosen a different path than American culture in general will just have to be tolerant of the society they live in and not expect an absolute veto.


[QUOTE=Do_unto_others;344261]What you really mean is  'render to the CHRISTIAN American People who believe the way and the things I believe what belongs to the CHRISTIAN American people who believe the way and the things I believe' don't you?



No, YOUR faith in God is so proclaimed. 'Their' faith is ignored or trampled on by people who insist like you do that your faith must be imposed on ALL citizens, regardless of THEIR differing beliefs.[/QUOTE]

   Not mine...the American People's. I am not that powerful myself (or things would be run quite differently). This is one example of something that was NOT imposed on the the American People. For a change. If you dont like it then avail yourself to a free society and try and change it. By persuasion..not force. And you will need better arguments than "there is a guy who doesnt like this".
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