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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 2:56AM #31
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

The Republic of South Africa implemented a policy of apartheid which legally defined various parts of its own population along racial lines and separated the races in terms of voting rights, etc. etc.



Why don't you mention the homelands, habesor?

They also declared considerable part of their own population not to be any more their own population, but second-class residents in 100% dependent slave-type states.

And why exactly is it, do you think, that Israel and South Africa under the apartheid givernment, had quite close political and economic relations? E.g., the arms sales to the apartheid regime when the rest of the world had instituted an arms embargo?

tl;dr
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 2:59AM #32
habesor
Posts: 5,801
[QUOTE=SherriMunnerlyn;32441]

This is what I read. Those who are of Palestinian ethnicity but did not leave the land in the 1948 war have restricted citizenship. Those from East Jerusalem and the Golan: After the 1967 war, Israel made their land part of the state (in violation of the Geneva Convention and UN Resolutions). These Palestinians do not have citizenship, only a paper document verifying they have the right to live in the State of Israel. There are 500,000 non-citizen people living on land that has been in their family for generations. Those in the West Bank live with a 25 foot wall passing through their West Bank property. Their homes are in a portion of Israel, and they are unable to commute to their own land or to travel in Israel. Those in Gaza live in a small area 7 miles wide by 27 miles long. About 1.5 million Palestinians live in this small enclave, often referred to as the world's largest prison.

[/QUOTE]

Sherri,

I did not read the article you cited. However, your references to that article indicate some misunderstanding of te situation. After the 1948 war many of the Israeli-Arabs most definitely suffered from restrictions on their civil rights. These restrictions were gradually removed in time and by two decades after that war the administrative regime that imposed these restrictions was dismantled by the Israeli government. I'm sure that you can still find areas where Arab citizens of Israel are disadvantaged, for instance in some governmental budgetary allocations, but restricted Israeli-Arab civil rights ended over 40 years ago.

Palestinians in Jerusalem and Syrians in the Golan Heights were offered Israeli citizenship. Some accepted the offer and became Israeli citizens and others did not. The civil rights they enjoy today depend on their choice with those opting out of citizenship having less rights, such as not being permitted to vote in Israeli elections. The situation of the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank have nothing to do with the question of civil rights within the State of  Israel.

By the way, though it has nothing to do with the issue that I discussed with Piobear, the barrier that Israel built to protect its civilian population against Palestinian terrorism effects the property usage of much less than one percent of the Palestinian population on the west bank and none of the Palestinians in the Gaza strip. To write, "Those in the West Bank live with a 25 foot wall passing through their West Bank property. "is a huge exageration to say the least.
Habesor
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 3:11AM #33
habesor
Posts: 5,801
Charikleia,

There are a lot of things that I didn't mention including the homelands, South West Africa, the Black Sash movement, the Broederbond, Afrikaners and all sorts of other elements of the South African experience. I was trying to write a concise answer not a book.

Israel and South Africa under the Apartheid regime had good trade relations, including arms trade, because there were profits to be made. That's why France and Great Britain engaged in arms trade to Apartheid South Africa, The USA sells arms to Saudi Arabia; the Russians, Germans, Chinese and French sell arms to the Ayatollahs in Iran and sold arms to Saddam's Iraq. As far as I know, everyone who engages in arms sales does it for the money.
Habesor
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 9:32AM #34
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301
[QUOTE=habesor]I was trying to write a concise answer not a book.[/QUOTE]

Believe me, I appreciate that style.

Still, to me it looked in the first place like a biased description, not so much a concise one...

If only there weren't always two sides to our argumentative coins here at b'net...
tl;dr
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 12, 2007 - 12:09AM #35
habesor
Posts: 5,801
Sherri,

On another thread you expressed your shame in America. You wrote that among other things you based your feelings on the following:

"I feel ashamed to be an American, because of our actions. ...

Since Bush has been President, we have started two wars and have caused the death of over 1 million human beings in Iraq..."

One must ask what it takes for you to consider that someone else has started a war with the USA. The United States was attacked on 9/11 by a group with its headquarters and training facilities in Afghanistan, protected by the Afghan Taliban government and whose armed militants were an integral part of the oppressive aparatus keeping the Taliban regime in power. In addition the group which attacked the USA, caused the deaths of 3000 innocent American civilians. This is roughly three times the number you allege were killed in Lebanon and continually bemoan on these forums, though you seem to very easily have forgotten the 3000 dead Americans. In addition, the group which attacked the USA publicly promised that these attacks were to be followed by many more. One can only wonder what it would take for you to consider that an Islamist or other non-Jewish Middle Eastern state was an aggressor in a conflict.

Being an aggressor, Sherri, involves being charged with responsibility for ones actions. Time and again you place the blame for one million Iraqi deaths at the door of the USA, while anyone who has two eyes can observe the Iraqi "resistance" targetting Iraqi mosques, churches, schools, outdoor markets, and any large gathering of innocent Iraqi civilians without a murmur of complaint on your part. By the way, Sherri, though there are questions as to the number of killed in the current war, there is no doubt that the number killed in the Iran-Iraq war was in excess of one million. Who was responsible for those deaths in that war? The USA? Israel? the Zionists? Could it possibly be the case that Iraq and Iran were responsible?

Your rather myopic view of the world is applied to the Arab-Israeli conflict as well. In the same message, you wrote:

"... We also supported Israel's war against Lebanon, that killed over one thousand innocent civilians (Israel's indiscriminate bombings, as documented by Amnesty and Human Rights Watch)."

Of course, Human Rights Watch also reported Lebanese indiscriminant bombings of Israeli civilians but somehow this fact has fallen below your moral radar.

"Since Bush has been President, we have further demonized the Palestinians, who consist of over 4 million human beings, over half of whom are children."

Let's see, the last time that I looked President Bush was the first USA President who has called for the creation of a Palestinian state as part of the solution to the conflict. Some demonization!

"These 4 million human beings live under a over 40 year brutal occupation and they suffer substantial human rights abuses at the hands of Israel."

Tell me Sherri, what is more important to you; the allegedly brutal occupation and human rights abuses inflicted on the Palestinians or the fact that it is Israel that is supposedly doing the inflicting. Could it be the case that you don't really care very much about Palestinians but are more interested in exercising your hatred of Israel? And while I am on the subject, during how many of those 40 years did the PLO (the sole representative of the Palestinian people) reject the idea of peace with the Jewish State of Israel or even consider the possibility of negotiations with that state?

Tell me Sherri, if you were an Arab, are there any actions by the Palestinians or their leaders which would make you feel ashamed?
Habesor
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 12, 2007 - 3:45AM #36
Piobair_Paganach
Posts: 291

After the 1948 war many of the Israeli-Arabs most definitely suffered from restrictions on their civil rights.



That has got to be the most ludicrous understatement of the year!

[COLOR=#7b8790][FONT=Arial]The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine[/FONT][/COLOR]
Letter From Israel
Calling a Spade a Spade: The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
[URL="http://[URL="http://www.al-awda.org/zionists01.html"]Dispossession[/URL] and Ethnic Cleansing


If you’re going to call me stupid and totally ignorant of Israel, you’re really gonna have to try a bit harder than that!

As far as I know, everyone who engages in arms sales does it for the money.



Despite comprising only .001 per cent of the world’s population, Israel receives one third of all American foreign aid. They receive the most American military aid of any country on earth, and are the largest buyer of American made weapons (with money we gave them, of course). Since 1949; the United States has given Israel $133.132 billion dollars.

Every U.S. loan to Israel has eventually been forgiven by Congress. Between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and not a dime ever repaid.

Due to our firm commitment to tax relief for the needy rich, the U.S. is the world's largest debtor nation; we borrow the money we give to Israel. Since 1949 the interest on those loans has totaled 49.937 billion dollars, and we can’t afford health care for our own kids.

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7 years ago  ::  Nov 12, 2007 - 3:59PM #37
myrick007
Posts: 683
What prejudiced links

The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

Calling a Spade a Spade: The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

Both by Ilan Pappe.

  interview with the French newspaper Le Soir, Nov. 29, 1999.

Ilan Pappe, a history lecturer at the University of Haifa, freely admits that, in his view, facts are irrelevant when it comes to the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. "Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dispossession and Ethnic Cleansing

By Nizar Sakhnini

A prolific writer of Jewish atrocity against innocent victimized Palestinian. However he has respectable credentials & is well known.

Sample

31 December 2004

Peaceful co-existence requires respect for and acceptance of the other as an equal human being with equal human rights.  Zionism is based on ethnic superiority and complete denial of the other, which leaves no room for peace with Zionism in Palestine. 


Typical pro Palestinian anti Israel. The web is filled with these kinds of proofs lol. Concerning any subject one can imagine.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 12, 2007 - 9:43PM #38
NJLee
Posts: 2,191
Thank you for trying to straighten out the thinking of Sheri and pio 

I think it is a futile effort however.  I agree with most of all you say and the kind but firm tone of your post.  I just call them anti Bush/Americans and go on to more signifant comments.

By the way how does one feel about Hamas Firing on Fatah today as Fatah was celebrating the anniversary of Arafat's death??  Muslims killing Muslims again and for what??
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 13, 2007 - 9:31AM #39
habesor
Posts: 5,801
Piobair,

In response to my comment, "After the 1948 war many of the Israeli-Arabs most definitely suffered from restrictions on their civil rights." you wrote,  "That has got to be the most ludicrous understatement of the year!"

You followed this with some citations that had nothing to do with the subject of my comment. This doesn't exactly inspire confidence that you are knowledgeable about the subject. Just to put it to you as simply as I can; my comment refered to the Arab residents of mandatory Palestine who either remained in their homes during the 1948 war, or returned after the war was over. They became Israeli citizens and my comment refers to them. Perhaps my comment was the ludicrous understatement of the year but none of the sources you cited related to Israeli-Arabs.

As for those sources, well you might consider broadening your reading on the topic a bit. Old line Marxists have an ideological problem with Jewish nationalism and this often leads them to exagerate their criticisms of Israel in much the same way that they used to exagerate their praise of comrade Stalin.  There are several "new" and "post-Zionist" Israeli historians who have done some excellent work examining Israeli national mythology. Unfortunately Ilan Pappe is not one of them today, though he was once considered one of the bright lights of these historical schools. He was rejected by his peers when he announced that ideological rather than factual truth is what counts. He was in the midst of defending a researcher who had faked his data to support a contention that an IDF unit had committed a particular incident of mass murder during the 1948 war.

As to your comment about American aid to Israel, the facts are that since 1949 through 2005 (56 years) Israel has received almost 154 billion dollars in aid calculated in 2005 dollars. From 1946 through 2005 (59 years) Western Europe has received about 365 billion dollars in aid calculated in 2005 dollars. This doesn't count the hundreds of billions of additional 2005 dollars that the USA spent maintaining a strong military presence in Europe during the cold war.  South Korea during the same period receive 66 billion in aid, most of it between 1950 to the mid 60's along with a couple of hundred billion 2005 dollars in direct military outlays to defend the place and several tens of thousands of American lives. Between 1954 to the early 1970's (about 20 years) South Viet Nam received about 100 billion dollars in aid. I don't know how many hundreds of billions were spent by the USA defending that country but additionally about 50,000 American military personnel lost their lives there. In the four years from 2002 to 2005 the USA extended to Iraq over 20 billion dollars in aid, at least a few hundred billion in defense costs and many American lives. Egypt received about 93 billion in aid from the USA despite the fact that during much of the time this aid was being delivered, Egypt was spending a great deal of resources trying to destabilize the regimes of America's Middle Eastern allies such as Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

Piobair,  American assistance to other countries is a complex topic made even more complex by the fact that Great Britain, France, Germany and the USSR were heavily engaged in aiding the same Middle Eastern states.   What was your point?
Habesor
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 14, 2007 - 9:20AM #40
NJLee
Posts: 2,191
Escellent point habesor I always appreciate you knowledge and point of view.

I see a bright light of hope for the Middle East in the meeting in Turkey dealing with an Industrial park to be developed on the west bank by Turkey.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2684E62F-D2D5-4B45-B51D-4332BD05ECB5.htm

Abbas and Peres call for peace

Shimon Peres, the Israeli president, and Mahmoud Abbas, his Palestinian counterpart, have addressed Turkey's parliament in Ankara, strongly advocating a peaceful resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict.


The address by Peres was the first by an Israeli president before the legislature of a Muslim country.


Both leaders on Tuesday expressed optimism that an upcoming peace conference in the US would help thaw conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]"We may be saying different prayers but our eyes are turned toward the same sky and toward the same vision for the Middle East," Peres said.



[/FONT][/COLOR]"If there is peace between Israel and the Palestinians and the occupation of Arab lands ends, Israel will also live in a sea of peace, security and stability in the Middle East," Abbas said.


This is a very hopeful sign and it demonstrates the importance of economic growth in establishing peace in the world.

The reason for the conference was a planned Industrial park in the west Bank sponsored by Turkey.

It is a sad thing that so many liberals have not appreciation of markets and industrialization as facilitators of peace and prosperity.
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