Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 1 of 2  •  1 2 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Luther's vs. Calvin's visions
10 years ago  ::  Oct 18, 2007 - 5:13PM #1
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301
The "Peace of Augsburg" ending the war between Lutheran and Catholic states in Germany in 1555 concluded with the regulation of "cuius regio, eius religio" -- whose the region, his the religion. This also formally ended the monopoly of the Catholic Church on faith -- whatever popes in recent history may claim.

The event stands in the longer tradition of the Church pulling out and being pushed out of politics in Europe. The development of Lutheran theology in this way is a milestone in the separation of church and state. In his book On the Freedom of a Christian, Luther denies any worldly authority on faith issues, as salvation is identified as by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone, and cannot be understood by human brains, it's a miracle of faith. Accordingly, Luther never sought worldly power.

Calvin's brain-loaded protestantism is different. Calvinists essentially believe in social control and theocracy -- based on predestination theology, and the manifest blessings of salvation which allow us to guess who's elected and who's reprobate already in this lifetime, if you're a sharp enough reform theologian, that is. Calvin's ideal can be seen realised in his very own horror regime in Geneva.

Nowadays, in the USA as well as in the Netherlands where I live, it is Calvinist fungus that erodes the separation fo church and state. The US capitalist doctrine that any poor man is poor because of own moral shortcomings, is a direct Calvinist assault on worldly issues such as economic redistribution.
tl;dr
Quick Reply
Cancel
10 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2007 - 6:47PM #2
Bodean
Posts: 11,110
[QUOTE=CharikIeia;6846]Nowadays, in the USA as well as in the Netherlands where I live, it is Calvinist fungus that erodes the separation fo church and state. The US capitalist doctrine that any poor man is poor because of own moral shortcomings, is a direct Calvinist assault on worldly issues such as economic redistribution.[/QUOTE]


That's because the US Economic Model is patterned more after John Wesley and the Methodist!

:p
Quick Reply
Cancel
10 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2007 - 6:47PM #3
Bodean
Posts: 11,110
[QUOTE=CharikIeia;6846]Nowadays, in the USA as well as in the Netherlands where I live, it is Calvinist fungus that erodes the separation fo church and state. The US capitalist doctrine that any poor man is poor because of own moral shortcomings, is a direct Calvinist assault on worldly issues such as economic redistribution.[/QUOTE]


That's because the US Economic Model is patterned more after John Wesley and the Methodist!

:p
Quick Reply
Cancel
10 years ago  ::  Nov 11, 2007 - 6:09PM #4
peterduce
Posts: 316
[QUOTE=CharikIeia;6846]The "Peace of Augsburg" ending the war between Lutheran and Catholic states in Germany in 1555 concluded with the regulation of "cuius regio, eius religio" -- whose the region, his the religion. This also formally ended the monopoly of the Catholic Church on faith -- whatever popes in recent history may claim.

The event stands in the longer tradition of the Church pulling out and being pushed out of politics in Europe. The development of Lutheran theology in this way is a milestone in the separation of church and state. In his book On the Freedom of a Christian, Luther denies any worldly authority on faith issues, as salvation is identified as by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone, and cannot be understood by human brains, it's a miracle of faith. Accordingly, Luther never sought worldly power.

Calvin's brain-loaded protestantism is different. Calvinists essentially believe in social control and theocracy -- based on predestination theology, and the manifest blessings of salvation which allow us to guess who's elected and who's reprobate already in this lifetime, if you're a sharp enough reform theologian, that is. Calvin's ideal can be seen realised in his very own horror regime in Geneva.

Nowadays, in the USA as well as in the Netherlands where I live, it is Calvinist fungus that erodes the separation fo church and state. The US capitalist doctrine that any poor man is poor because of own moral shortcomings, is a direct Calvinist assault on worldly issues such as economic redistribution.[/QUOTE]

nice post,

i will be responding in phonetic spelling and web srt hnd. i hope u r ok with that.

i believe that the essential errors of both luther and calvin directly relate to the faith that they wrongly called for and put into and attributed to the bible as a valid spritual tool for anyone that would chose to follow The Son of God. it is the worst tool possible for that end, but i agree some parts of it would made a ok starting point. i believe it was luther that first coined the blasphemy that "the bible is the word of god".

the bible is not and never was Gods Word. how can it be when it itself correctly defines the Word in Johns Gospel as Our Brother Yash'wa from Nazareth;

" in the beginning was The Word and The Word was with God and The Word was God- then the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us".

but from there error what they managed to do was really noteworthy. imagine were we would be now as a human/ spiritual family if ether of them got it right?

the good news is we still have time to get it right now.

luther was correct to show the scriptures to the roman church authority as proof of there wrongness. he was wrong in using as a spiritual foundation the bible and call for all to have faith in it. do u recall what Our Brother said of the scribe and the temple authority when His Work of perfect love as at hand? " look at them there reading and studying  the scriptures as if there in they will find salvation!"

we  believers in Him must have our faith seated in our hearts and not in our inteliect. we do well to give our hearts to Our Mighty Brother alone and look to were isaiah said we could find His Word- " written upon our hearts".


peace and good and love and faith bigger then a mustered seed >o
Quick Reply
Cancel
10 years ago  ::  Nov 11, 2007 - 6:09PM #5
peterduce
Posts: 316
[QUOTE=CharikIeia;6846]The "Peace of Augsburg" ending the war between Lutheran and Catholic states in Germany in 1555 concluded with the regulation of "cuius regio, eius religio" -- whose the region, his the religion. This also formally ended the monopoly of the Catholic Church on faith -- whatever popes in recent history may claim.

The event stands in the longer tradition of the Church pulling out and being pushed out of politics in Europe. The development of Lutheran theology in this way is a milestone in the separation of church and state. In his book On the Freedom of a Christian, Luther denies any worldly authority on faith issues, as salvation is identified as by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone, and cannot be understood by human brains, it's a miracle of faith. Accordingly, Luther never sought worldly power.

Calvin's brain-loaded protestantism is different. Calvinists essentially believe in social control and theocracy -- based on predestination theology, and the manifest blessings of salvation which allow us to guess who's elected and who's reprobate already in this lifetime, if you're a sharp enough reform theologian, that is. Calvin's ideal can be seen realised in his very own horror regime in Geneva.

Nowadays, in the USA as well as in the Netherlands where I live, it is Calvinist fungus that erodes the separation fo church and state. The US capitalist doctrine that any poor man is poor because of own moral shortcomings, is a direct Calvinist assault on worldly issues such as economic redistribution.[/QUOTE]

nice post,

i will be responding in phonetic spelling and web srt hnd. i hope u r ok with that.

i believe that the essential errors of both luther and calvin directly relate to the faith that they wrongly called for and put into and attributed to the bible as a valid spritual tool for anyone that would chose to follow The Son of God. it is the worst tool possible for that end, but i agree some parts of it would made a ok starting point. i believe it was luther that first coined the blasphemy that "the bible is the word of god".

the bible is not and never was Gods Word. how can it be when it itself correctly defines the Word in Johns Gospel as Our Brother Yash'wa from Nazareth;

" in the beginning was The Word and The Word was with God and The Word was God- then the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us".

but from there error what they managed to do was really noteworthy. imagine were we would be now as a human/ spiritual family if ether of them got it right?

the good news is we still have time to get it right now.

luther was correct to show the scriptures to the roman church authority as proof of there wrongness. he was wrong in using as a spiritual foundation the bible and call for all to have faith in it. do u recall what Our Brother said of the scribe and the temple authority when His Work of perfect love as at hand? " look at them there reading and studying  the scriptures as if there in they will find salvation!"

we  believers in Him must have our faith seated in our hearts and not in our inteliect. we do well to give our hearts to Our Mighty Brother alone and look to were isaiah said we could find His Word- " written upon our hearts".


peace and good and love and faith bigger then a mustered seed >o
Quick Reply
Cancel
10 years ago  ::  Nov 12, 2007 - 8:14PM #6
Speaker
Posts: 15
[QUOTE=Bodean;36660]That's because the US Economic Model is patterned more after John Wesley and the Methodist!

:p[/QUOTE]
I'd have to say that Us economic model has nothing to do with Wesley.  This could be because I am a Methodist, but if I remember correctly Wesley advised all people to give all that they can.  He also claimed that if he died with more than ten pounds to his name (witch he certainly didn't) that people could call him a crook. 
The general trend of the US to assume that poor are poor because God wants them to be poor and the rich the opposite may have calvinist roots, may not.  The Methodist may have backed such views at certain parts of the 19th century (not now days, espeically in the UMC) but for the most part theologies like this tend to arise from an uncritical readings (or not reading) of the bible.  You might see this in some of those rediculouse things espoused by people such as Joel Osting and the lot.  Conservative theology tries to support the status quo.  The rich tend to like the status quo, because it put them in power and keeps them in power.  Thus conservative christianity can tend to support the rich (I'll probably get dragged through a bunch of counter examples for that one)
As far as Luther goes there might be a stronger connection between him and the seperation of church and state if he didn't argue for the divine right "rule" / mass murdering or whatever esle the government who holds the "sword" wants to do.
Quick Reply
Cancel
10 years ago  ::  Nov 13, 2007 - 7:16PM #7
kannbrown65
Posts: 1,962
I wouldn't say it was a direct result of Calvin's theology, but it is a very common result, and the tendency showed even before Calvin was in his grave.

You see, there's not a lot of comfort to be found in the straight Calvinist theology. In a sense, you can't call it 'insecurity', since there is absolutely nothing the person can do, either way, to change their fate, and therefore, they are impervious. Of course, that works for the damned as well as the saved, so that's not exactly.. comforting.

The issue became, since it wasn't 'how do you join the right group', since that was out of your hands, but 'how do you know, and possibly equally important, how do others know if you're among the 'elect'?" (Talk about the ultimate 'in group'..)

So, came the 'signs of election'.  These weren't technically due to being good, or effort, but they were seen as somehow signifying that you were 'in', rather than 'out'.

And yes, prosperity was one of the signs to look for.
Quick Reply
Cancel
10 years ago  ::  Nov 14, 2007 - 11:41PM #8
Bodean
Posts: 11,110
[QUOTE=Speaker;64279]I'd have to say that Us economic model has nothing to do with Wesley.  This could be because I am a Methodist, but if I remember correctly Wesley advised all people to give all that they can.  He also claimed that if he died with more than ten pounds to his name (witch he certainly didn't) that people could call him a crook. 
The general trend of the US to assume that poor are poor because God wants them to be poor and the rich the opposite may have calvinist roots, may not.  The Methodist may have backed such views at certain parts of the 19th century (not now days, espeically in the UMC) but for the most part theologies like this tend to arise from an uncritical readings (or not reading) of the bible.  You might see this in some of those rediculouse things espoused by people such as Joel Osting and the lot.  Conservative theology tries to support the status quo.  The rich tend to like the status quo, because it put them in power and keeps them in power.  Thus conservative christianity can tend to support the rich (I'll probably get dragged through a bunch of counter examples for that one)
As far as Luther goes there might be a stronger connection between him and the seperation of church and state if he didn't argue for the divine right "rule" / mass murdering or whatever esle the government who holds the "sword" wants to do.[/QUOTE]


You may be right.  But I remember reading somewhere that the "work ethic" of the US had its roots in the Methodists.

:D
Quick Reply
Cancel
10 years ago  ::  Nov 15, 2007 - 1:31PM #9
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301
[QUOTE=Bodean;70067]"work ethic"  -- Methodists -- :D[/QUOTE]
Why do you always have to link everything to Bush, Bo?
tl;dr
Quick Reply
Cancel
10 years ago  ::  Nov 15, 2007 - 1:31PM #10
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301
[QUOTE=Bodean;70067]"work ethic"  -- Methodists -- :D[/QUOTE]
Why do you always have to link everything to Bush, Bo?
tl;dr
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 2  •  1 2 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook