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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 12:31PM #431
LeahOne
Posts: 16,396

The town which doesn't seem to have existed ca 4 BCE is Nazaret' - the archaeological evidence suggests it was settled a couple of hundred years later.


But it really doesn't matter.  Assume there was a historical Nazaret', and a coupleliving there named Miriam and Joseph named their child Joshua.  So what?


The Messiah of David's line *must* trace descent through the *male* line only.  Miriam's tribal association or descent means NOTHING for this descent - it *must* be through Joseph and it *must* be through him BIOLOGICALLY.  Judaism did NOT!!!!! recognize 'adoption' in the sense that the Roman or contemporary cultures do.


So the whole idea of the 'Gospel Jesus' being qualified even as a candidate for MbD in Judaism is a complete and total fallacy.


Never-mind that most of the 'prophesies' are simply not as claimed by Christians, because the Christians are using 'rules' never sanctioned by those whom Jesus stated 'sit in the seat of Moses' (ie, sages and Rabbis even to this day)......


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 12:43PM #432
G.flower
Posts: 3,598

Yes, it is pretty clear that the Christians started "adding to" ie. "making up stuff" after the fact to give their religion some authority but since by that time they weren't very familiar with Judaism, not to mention the history and cultures of the mid-east, they borked it in so many ways... I very much doubt that any Jew would go to hear Jesus preach if they thought he was claiming to be a demi-god, like Hercules. That would be heresy. And besides that, if he claimed that Yahweh was daddy, then as you say, he couldn't be the messiah, and the Jews he was preaching to would know that.

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 1:19PM #433
theinterpreter
Posts: 1,699

Apr 3, 2012 -- 11:48AM, G.flower wrote:


Apr 3, 2012 -- 9:31AM, theinterpreter wrote:


Apr 3, 2012 -- 7:51AM, G.flower wrote:


Apr 2, 2012 -- 7:01PM, theinterpreter wrote:


Apr 1, 2012 -- 11:21AM, G.flower wrote:


Apr 1, 2012 -- 10:34AM, theinterpreter wrote:


Mar 31, 2012 -- 7:15PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


Mar 29, 2012 -- 5:56PM, theinterpreter wrote:


Mar 29, 2012 -- 3:12AM, Namchuck wrote:


 



theinterpreter:


"My predictions are based on Bible prophecy, which cannot fail to come true. God will not let His chosen people be exterminated. Israel and the west (led by the US) will win."



You seem to be unaware that there isn't the slightest evidence that even one Bible prophecy ever came true while there is a host of so-called prophecies in the Bible that completely failed.


Have you actually ever read the Bible?



Jesus, in His first coming, fulfilled 300 prophesies.




Name one.



For starters, He was born in Bethlehem, fulfilling a Messiah prophecy in MIcah 5:2




Where is your proof for that? Right, you have none. Here's the problems with it.


debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/...


www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_...


Next?



Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but not on December 25th. The Star in the East (I.e, Venus) appeared over Bethlehem near high noon on March 27th, 4BC (during a solar eclipse). 




Um, you've got your stories mixed. That was supposedly when Harrod died, during that eclipse.



That's when Herod killed 300 innocents including his own son. He died 4 days later.




I'm afraid that that is a myth, too. It never happened. Haven't you posted that before and had it corrected?


Regarding the Massacre of the Innocents, although Herod was certainly guilty of many brutal acts, including the killing of his wife and two of his sons, no other known source from the period makes any reference to such a massacre.[21] Since Bethlehem was a small village, the number of male children under the age of two might not exceed 20. This may be the reason for the lack of other sources for this history,[22] although Herod's order in Matthew 2:16 includes those children in Bethlehem's vicinity making the massacre larger numerically and geographically. Modern biographers of Herod tend to doubt the event took place.[23]


Boy, you are a font of misinformation! It is a shame that someone filled your head with so much false stuff. I'm very glad that you continue to post here so that we can educate you a little.




The history books say that Herod killed 300 residents of Jerusalem on March 27th, 4BC. including his own son, prompting Caesar to say. "I'd rather be one of Herod's swine than one of his sons." Evidently, some of the murdered 300 innocents were in Bethlehem.
Six months earlier, Venus (also called the Dayspring Star) appeared over the hill country of Judea when John the Baptist was born. The birth of John was on the first day of the Jew's secular calendar, and the birth of Jesus was on the first day of the Jew's sacred calendar. Thus, the morning stars sang together, fulfilling a prophecy in Job.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 1:27PM #434
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

What "history books"?

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 1:57PM #435
G.flower
Posts: 3,598

Apr 3, 2012 -- 1:19PM, theinterpreter wrote:




Um, you've got your stories mixed. That was supposedly when Harrod died, during that eclipse.



That's when Herod killed 300 innocents including his own son. He died 4 days later.




I'm afraid that that is a myth, too. It never happened. Haven't you posted that before and had it corrected?


Regarding the Massacre of the Innocents, although Herod was certainly guilty of many brutal acts, including the killing of his wife and two of his sons, no other known source from the period makes any reference to such a massacre.[21] Since Bethlehem was a small village, the number of male children under the age of two might not exceed 20. This may be the reason for the lack of other sources for this history,[22] although Herod's order in Matthew 2:16 includes those children in Bethlehem's vicinity making the massacre larger numerically and geographically. Modern biographers of Herod tend to doubt the event took place.[23]


Boy, you are a font of misinformation! It is a shame that someone filled your head with so much false stuff. I'm very glad that you continue to post here so that we can educate you a little.



The history books say that Herod killed 300 residents of Jerusalem on March 27th, 4BC. including his own son, prompting Caesar to say. "I'd rather be one of Herod's swine than one of his sons." Evidently, some of the murdered 300 innocents were in Bethlehem.
Six months earlier, Venus (also called the Dayspring Star) appeared over the hill country of Judea when John the Baptist was born. The birth of John was on the first day of the Jew's secular calendar, and the birth of Jesus was on the first day of the Jew's sacred calendar. Thus, the morning stars sang together, fulfilling a prophecy in Job.




Whatever history books you are using are out of date or deliberately misleading you! Could you post the name and author of your "history books?"  I can well understand if they were published 70 years ago or more. The ones published in the 1930s didn't have access to  modern archeology discoveries and scientific techniques that have been developed since then. The world has changed, myths have been explored and unfortunately much of the Christian ones have been proven to be wrong.


I'm so glad that you are continuing to post so that you will learn how distorted the religious history you were taught so many years ago was. I think perhaps you have stumbled into some very odd astrology with the John the Baptist thing. Could you post a source for that?


Did you not understand that the Jewish messiah can't be a demi-god?


Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 2:15PM #436
Whisper01
Posts: 2,673

Apr 3, 2012 -- 1:27PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


What "history books"?





That's a very good question, which history books indeed! How old are these "history" books anyway?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 4:01PM #437
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 3, 2012 -- 1:19PM, theinterpreter wrote:

The history books say that Herod killed 300 residents of Jerusalem on March 27th, 4BC. including his own son, prompting Caesar to say. "I'd rather be one of Herod's swine than one of his sons." Evidently, some of the murdered 300 innocents were in Bethlehem.



The history books say nothing of the kind. According to Josephus, shortly before his death Herod


proceeded to attempt a horrid wickedness; for he got together the most illustrious men of the whole Jewish nation, out of every village, into a place called the Hippodrome, and there shut them in. He then called for his sister Salome, and her husband Alexas, and made this speech to them: “I know well enough that the Jews will keep a festival upon my death; however, it is in my power to be mourned for on other accounts, and to have a splendid funeral, if you will but be subservient to my commands. Do you but take care to send soldiers to encompass these men that are now in custody, and slay them immediately upon my death, and then all Judea, and every family of them, will weep at it, whether they will or no.”


No specific number is mentioned, nor is Bethlehem singled out among the villages. For all we know, there may have been no one from Bethlehem. Moreover, none of the proposed victims were children. And, as it turned out, none of them were killed:


Now, before the soldiers knew of his death, Salome and her husband came out and dismissed those that were in bonds, whom the king had commanded to be slain, and told them that he had altered his mind, and would have every one of them sent to their own homes.


Wouldn't you agree that a Massacre of the Innocents in which nobody was massacred is a contradiction in terms?


Herod also had his son Antipater executed a few days before his death, but this had no connection to the proposed massacre of leading men. In 5 BCE Antipater, Herod's appointed heir, had been charged with plotting to murder his father. He was undoubtedly guilty of the charge. Following an eminently fair trial by Publius Quinctilius Varus, the Roman governor of Syria, Antipater was returned to Herod's custody to await the emperor Augustus' approval of the death sentence. The approval arrived five days before Herod's death, and the Antipater was promptly executed. There was nothing underhanded or illegal about it.


I've explained all of this before. Please do me the courtesy of absorbing it.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 4:55PM #438
BillWitt
Posts: 2,622

Apr 1, 2012 -- 10:34AM, theinterpreter wrote:

For starters, He was born in Bethlehem, fulfilling a Messiah prophecy in MIcah 5:2



Interpreter, where did you get the crazy idea that Micah 5.2 was a prophecy about the Messiah being born in Bethlehem??  It wasn't.  Haven't you read and studied your Bible carefully.  Neither a TOWN, or the TOWN of Bethlehem was ever mentioned in Micah 5.2.  Go back and read it carefully.  No mention of any TOWN, and no mention of the town of Bethlehem.  There is no prophecy anywhere in the OT claiming the Messiah would be born in the TOWN of Bethlehem. 

If Micah 5.2 should even be considered a prophecy about the Messiah (it's shouldn't be), it said that he would "come forth" from Bethlehem-Ephratah.  Bethlehem-Ephratah was not a town, it was the CLAN of Bethlehem and his father Ephratah.  You can find more information about Bethlehem, his father Ephratah, and their clan in 1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, and 4:4. 

In the poorly translated Greek writing in the Septuagint (this is what the author of Matthew was using - he apparantly couldn't read Hebrew), it is unclear what Bethlehem-Ephratah was referring to.  He made an error in thinking it was a town.  It was not, it was a CLAN.  The English translation is not clear either on what is meant by Bethlehem-Ephratah.  In all of the earliest Hebrew writings of Micah 5.2, it is very clear that it is a CLAN, and not a town.  Here is Micah 5.2 (5.1) from the Hebrew writings of the Tanakh.

Tanakh, Micah 5:1; And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the CLANS of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from of old, from days of yore.


Well, great Interpreter, you blow it again, as usual.  You don't know what the heck you're talking about.  You haven't even read, or studied your Bible carefully. 


A more important question, Interpreter, is why do you consider anything in the Gospel of Matthew to be true??  It's not!  It is a fictional story madeup by some unknown author 50 years after the supposed death of Jesus who didn't know him (if he did exist), apparently didn't know Hebrew, didn't know Jewish believe about the Messiah, didn't know Jewish institutions like the Sanhedrin, and didn't even seem to know the region of Palestine very well.  His writing have hundreds of contradictions with other parts of the Bible, as well as many false statement and false stories, and there is no evidence anywhere that any of his stories about Jesus are actually true.  Why do you assume that they are??  Have you been brainwashed??       
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - -Isaac Asimov
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 4:59PM #439
TPaine
Posts: 9,380

Apr 2, 2012 -- 7:01PM, theinterpreter wrote:


Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but not on December 25th. The Star in the East (I.e, Venus) appeared over Bethlehem near high noon on March 27th, 4BC (during a solar eclipse).



There was no total solar eclipse in the year 4 BCE. There was a partial solar eclipse on March 8, 4 BCE, but it was only visible south of Australia. There was a lunar eclipse on March 23, 4 BCE and according to Josephus Herod the Great died between the date of that eclipse and Passover of that year. Link

"The genius of the Constitution rests not in any static meaning it might have had in a world that is dead and gone, but in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with current problems and current needs." -- Justice William Brennan: Speech to the Text and Teaching Symposium at Georgetown University (October 12, 1985)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 5:29PM #440
TPaine
Posts: 9,380

Apr 3, 2012 -- 9:31AM, theinterpreter wrote:


Apr 3, 2012 -- 7:51AM, G.flower wrote:


Um, you've got your stories mixed. That was supposedly when Harrod died, during that eclipse.



That's when Herod killed 300 innocents including his own son. He died 4 days later.



There was no Massacre of the Innocents. If there had been, both Luke and Josephus would have mentioned it. Neither did.

"The genius of the Constitution rests not in any static meaning it might have had in a world that is dead and gone, but in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with current problems and current needs." -- Justice William Brennan: Speech to the Text and Teaching Symposium at Georgetown University (October 12, 1985)
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