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3 years ago  ::  Mar 03, 2012 - 2:08AM #11
Namchuck
Posts: 11,869

Mar 3, 2012 -- 1:51AM, iamachildofhis wrote:


Mar 3, 2012 -- 1:08AM, Namchuck wrote:



Namchuck: I've told you, iama, I'm just not interested in sermons based on legends and fables.


If there are any questions you want to ask me, put them plainly and I'll do my best to answer them.


My conclusion stands. All religions are based on faith. Even opposing religions are based on faith. If faith can lead to wrong beliefs, it is of no value.



iama: I have failed to get the message across to you, obviously!


I don't see that you have any real "message". You merely have beliefs that likely only reflect deep-seated wishful thinking.


Every religion has ITS OWN FAITH which its members / adherents BELIEVE.  Therefore, every religion practiced on this Earth has its own FAITH TENANTS, which makes each religion different from every other religion, because WHAT IS BELIEVED, is different from that BELIEVED by every other religion.


Yes, and the adherents of the various religions all have faith in their respective beliefs, beliefs that are often utterly opposed to the beliefs of other religions. Hence, faith can lead to wrong beliefs, which is why there is no value in faith.


What is BELIEVING?  Believing is a soul-spirit-mind ACTION which, then, governs all other related decisions of that human being.


People believe when they don't know. It would be more honest to simply acknowledge that one doesn't know rather than hide one's ignorance behind a mask of belief.


Does it, then, make any sense to you, that NOT ALL BELIEFS / FAITHS produce the results which are claimed by those religions?


A meaningless question. Which faith is willing to own up that they don't work? 


Only THE FAITH which is actually backed up by a reality-entity capable of fulfilling The Faith proclaimed, is a valid FAITH!


Unlike knowledge, which relies upon the right relationship between mind and the world, faith relies on nothing in the world. One can, in short, belief anything, as faith clearly does. 


A human being can believe anything which he / she chooses to believe - any "faith" - but if that "faith" has no power-ENTITY capable of performing the said "faith" promises, then, the believing is a useless soul-spirit-mind activity!


You've successfully described all the faiths'!


That said, there are evil spirit beings which are capable of deceiving human beings through many religions which exist!


You couldn't help yourself, could you? You had to advance at least one unjustified assumption.There isn't the least evidence for "evil spirit beings". That's nong-headed first-order superstition. 


Now try writing a rational post.


.





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3 years ago  ::  Mar 03, 2012 - 8:48PM #12
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,851

Mar 3, 2012 -- 2:08AM, Namchuck wrote:



Namchuck: I've told you, iama, I'm just not interested in sermons based on legends and fables.


If there are any questions you want to ask me, put them plainly and I'll do my best to answer them.


My conclusion stands. All religions are based on faith. Even opposing religions are based on faith. If faith can lead to wrong beliefs, it is of no value.



iama: You are using several terms, here, which need to be correctly understood:



- 1.  religions - All religions comprise A FAITH!


"Religion can be explained as a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of / (by) a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."



- 2.  faith - noun - having noun usages - referring to some object concerning which you are persuaded.  FAITH is NEVER sourced from within yourself and expressed as a verb - the verb is pistis - believe



Etymology


From πείθομαι "I am persuaded", passive form of πείθω "I persuade"


Noun


πίστις (genitive πίστεως) f, third declension; (pistis)


  1. trust in others, faith
  2. belief in a higher power, faith
  3. the state of being persuaded of something: belief, confidence, assurance
  4. trust in a commercial sense: credit
  5. faithfulness, honesty, trustworthiness, fidelity
  6. that which gives assurance: treaty, oath, guarantee
  7. means of persuasion: argument, proof
  8. that which is entrusted



The New Testament was originally recorded in the Greek language:


Greek - pietho; Roman - fides / Suadela - Persuasion

www.purplehell.com/riddletools/g-list.ht...


Greek - Peitha; Greek (alternate spelling) - Peitho;  Roman - Suadela: Goddess of Persuasion


www.unrv.com/culture/minor-roman-god-lis...



Roman - Fides     Goddess of faithfulness and good faith.
Roman - Suadela     Goddess of persuasion, especially in matters of love.



Hebrews 11:1


"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen."


Mar 11:22 


"And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God;" "Have God's faith"



- 3.  beliefs - noun - that which comprises a religion or a world view held by a person



One term, which was not used, here, but must be included, was:


- 4. believe - verb - This is the personal action of the soul-spirit-heart of the person with respect to some faith-theology.


"According to Strong, "pisteuō" (the verb "believe") means "to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in," and is "used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled..." It is an "acknowledgment of some fact or event," an "intellectual faith." "


iama: I have failed to get the message across to you, obviously!


I don't see that you have any real "message". You merely have beliefs that likely only reflect deep-seated wishful thinking.



iama:  The message is that you are confusing "faith / belief" and "believing."


When a human believes a TRUE religion / faith, there is a connection of the human to the TRUE FAITH.  There is a power which moves from THE FAITH / God to the believer.  If there is no TRUE God there, there is no God-power which moves from THE FAITH / God to that human believer.



Religion / Faith A:


electric line with no flowing electrons__________________________________


human believes and connects to the religion / no power there (evil spirits, maybe)



Religion / Faith B:


electric line with no flowing electrons__________________________________


human believes and connects to the religion / no power there (evil spirits, maybe)



Religion / Faith C:


electric** line **with **flowing **electrons_***************************


human believes and connects to the religion / power is there to regenerate the human spirit




iama: Every religion has ITS OWN FAITH which its members / adherents BELIEVE.  Therefore, every religion practiced on this Earth has its own FAITH TENANTS, which makes each religion different from every other religion, because WHAT IS BELIEVED, is different from that BELIEVED by every other religion.


Namchuck: Yes, and the adherents of the various religions all have faith in their respective beliefs, beliefs that are often utterly opposed to the beliefs of other religions. Hence, faith can lead to wrong beliefs, which is why there is no value in faith.



iama: No, they don't HAVE faith; they believe "the faith" of that religion. "Faith" doesn't eminate out of the self!  Believing - the verb - eminates out of the self. "Beliefs," again, is a noun and not a verb.  "Believing" is the action which eminates out of the self.  Every religion HAS A FAITH / has its BELIEFS.  Not, "the adherents of the various religions all have faith in their respective beliefs," but "the adherents of the various religions all believe (verb) in their respective beliefs (noun)."  Correction: All of the "faiths" / "beliefs" are opposed to the "faiths" / "beliefs" of other religions.


Correction: "Hence, faith believing can lead to wrong 'faiths' / beliefs "


Correction: There is value in believing in the correct FAITH: Christ Jesus, "Who came."


iama: What is BELIEVING?  Believing is a soul-spirit-mind ACTION which, then, governs all other related decisions of that human being.


Namchuck: People believe when they don't know. It would be more honest to simply acknowledge that one doesn't know rather than hide one's ignorance behind a mask of belief.



iama: Yes, people believe a lot of things without knowledge.  The Bible is there to give us knowledge of THE FAITH of God!


"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." 


Biblical believing is based upon knowing


iama: Does it, then, make any sense to you, that NOT ALL BELIEFS / FAITHS produce the results which are claimed by those religions?


Namchuck: A meaningless question. Which faith is willing to own up that they don't work?




iama:  None!  And deception is Satan's tool.  God-Holy Spirit regeneration of the human spirit-heart is evidence to the one who becomes "born from above."


"Taste and see that the LORD is good."  Do the experiment!


iama: Only THE FAITH which is actually backed up by a reality-entity capable of fulfilling The Faith proclaimed, is a valid FAITH!


Namchuck: Unlike knowledge, which relies upon the right relationship between mind and the world, faith relies on nothing in the world. One can, in short, belief anything, as faith clearly does.




iama:  Oh, that is not so!  The Bible is "in the world," and The Creation is "in the world." These are the foundations of THE FAITH of God.  Our Creator-God invites us to BELIEVE Him / The FAITH of God.


iama: A human being can believe anything which he / she chooses to believe - any "faith" - but if that "faith" has no power-ENTITY capable of performing the said "faith" promises, then, the believing is a useless soul-spirit-mind activity!


Namchuck: You've successfully described all the faiths'!



iama:  Except for the one TRUE FAITH: God - Father-Son-Holy Spirit.


iama: That said, there are evil spirit beings which are capable of deceiving human beings through many religions which exist!


Namchuck: You couldn't help yourself, could you? You had to advance at least one unjustified assumption.There isn't the least evidence for "evil spirit beings". That's nong-headed first-order superstition. 


Now try writing a rational post.



iama:  Ask these "Released from Shame" humans about "evil spirit beings":


Ethiopians come to Christ in droves after watching film


"Ethiopia has a long history of undervaluing its women, says Ethiopia ministry director for JESUS Film Project, Damtew. Yet, the JESUS Film movie "Magdalena: Released from Shame" is an adaptation of the "JESUS" film that speaks directly to this overlooked group. As the JESUS Film project has started to show the film, they've been unable to stop its progress.


"Women are being healed at showings as they watch. Demons scream out and are then cast out," says Damtew. "It's just so amazing.""


.

The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 03, 2012 - 9:37PM #13
Namchuck
Posts: 11,869


iama: No, they don't HAVE faith; they believe "the faith" of that religion.


They have 'faith' in a particular religion and 'faith' in the beliefs that comprise the religion. Hence a Muslim, for instance, has faith that Mohammed is the "fulfillment of the prophets". He might also have faith in the Koran's teaching that Jesus didn't die on the cross. That is exactly the same kind of faith that a Christian has in the belief that Jesus did die on the cross. These two religions are convinced that the other is wrong on this particular issue. Thus, faith is arbitrary and can lead to false beliefs, which amply demonstrates that faith is of no value.



Correction: There is value in believing in the correct FAITH: Christ Jesus, "Who came."


Every religion believes it is the "correct Faith". Considering how diverse and contradictory the religions are one from another, faith is obviously arbitrary and of little or no value.



  



Namchuck: Unlike knowledge, which relies upon the right relationship between mind and the world, faith relies on nothing in the world. One can, in short, belief anything, as faith clearly does


iama:  Oh, that is not so!  The Bible is "in the world," and The Creation is "in the world." These are the foundations of THE FAITH of God.  Our Creator-God invites us to BELIEVE Him / The FAITH of God.


It is completely so, as anyone who understands epistemology knows.


The Bible is in the world, was composed and inspired by men who live in the world, and refers to nothing outside of the world that is real.



iama:  Except for the one TRUE FAITH: God - Father-Son-Holy Spirit.


Islam also refers to itself as the "one TRUE FAITH". Islam and Christianity have a number of things in common, one of chief thigs being an incorrigible indifference to evidence.


Ethiopians come to Christ in droves after watching film


"Ethiopia has a long history of undervaluing its women, says Ethiopia ministry director for JESUS Film Project, Damtew. Yet, the JESUS Film movie "Magdalena: Released from Shame" is an adaptation of the "JESUS" film that speaks directly to this overlooked group. As the JESUS Film project has started to show the film, they've been unable to stop its progress.


"Women are being healed at showings as they watch. Demons scream out and are then cast out," says Damtew. "It's just so amazing."


How does that lead to the [false] conclusion that Christianity is the "one TRUE FAITH"?


There are whole villages on Islands in the South Pacific converting (including once repressed women) to Mormonism. Would you concede that this constitutes evidence that Joseph Smith's religion is the "one TRUE FAITH" as many Mormon's believe?


It may be good for Ethiopian women, but all they may actually be achieving is to swap one form of unfreedom for another just as bad.


As H.L Mencken rightly said, 'The most costly of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind'.


The problem with faith is that it often makes us blind to the facts. Faith is not a virtue. It only bespeaks gullibility.



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3 years ago  ::  Mar 03, 2012 - 11:55PM #14
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,851

Mar 3, 2012 -- 9:37PM, Namchuck wrote:



iama: No, they don't HAVE faith; they believe "the faith" of that religion.


Namchuck: They have 'faith' in a particular religion and 'faith' in the beliefs that comprise the religion. Hence, a Muslim, for instance, has faith that Mohammed is the "fulfillment of the prophets". He might also have faith in the Koran's teaching that Jesus didn't die on the cross. That is exactly the same kind of faith that a Christian has in the belief that Jesus died on the cross. These two religions are convinced that the other is wrong on this particular issue. Thus, faith can lead to false beliefs and, consequently, demonstrates that faith is of no value.



iama: Those in the Islamic religious faith BELIEVE the faith of Islam. Those in the Christian religious faith BELIEVE the faith of Christianity.


1. Islam is a faith; one statement of the Islamic faith is: "that Mohammed is the 'fulfillment of the prophets.'" Another statement of the Islamic faith is: that "the Koran's teaching that Jesus didn't die on the cross." If one believes these two statements of the faith of Islam, they will, of course, not believe the statement of Christian faith statement to the contrary.


2. Christian is a faith; one statement of the Christian faith is: that "Jesus died on the cross." Another statement of the Christian faith is: that "Christ Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophets."


The above, two faiths / beliefs are entirely different!  It is believing that leads to false holding a false faith!


You examine the two faiths, and then choose which of the two you are going to believe.


It is the Christian faith / Christ Jesus, "Who came," Who is able to accomplish exactly what He has promised!


iama: Correction: There is value in believing in the correct FAITH: Christ Jesus, "Who came."


Namchuck: Every religion believes it is the "correct Faith". Considering how diverse and contradictory the religions are one from another, faith is obviously arbitrary and of little or no value.



iama:  You ask yourself which of the myriad of faiths there are out there, and you choose to believe one of them.


Check out the FAITHS and their BELIEFS at the following site:


Featured religions and beliefs

    Atheism

    Atheists are people who believe that god or gods are man-made constructs.



    Baha'i


    One of the youngest of the world's major religions.



    Buddhism

    A way of living based on the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama.




    Candomblé

    A religion based on African beliefs, originating in Brazil.



    Christianity

    The world's biggest faith, based on the teaching of Jesus Christ.



    Hinduism

    A group of faiths rooted in the religious ideas of India.

    Islam

    Revealed in its final form by the Prophet Muhammad.



    Jainism

    An ancient philosophy and ethical teaching that originated in India.



    Jehovah's Witnesses

    A Christian-based evangelistic religious movement.




    Judaism

    Based around the Jewish people's covenant relationship with God.



    Mormonism

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.



    Paganism

    Contemporary religions usually based on reverence for nature.




    Rastafari

    A young religion founded in Jamaica in the 1930s.



    Santeria

    Afro-Caribbean syncretic religion originating in Cuba.



    Shinto

    Japanese folk tradition and ritual with no founder or single sacred scripture.




    Sikhism

    The religion founded by Guru Nanak in India in the 15th Century CE.



    Spiritualism

    Spiritualists believe in communication with the spirits of people who have died.



    Taoism

    An ancient tradition of philosophy and belief rooted in Chinese worldview.




    Unitarianism

    An open-minded and individualistic approach to religion.



    Zoroastrianism

    One of the oldest monotheistic faiths, founded by the Prophet Zoroaster.



It is not possible that one human beings could examine all of the above FAITHS / BELIEFS, and then, BELIEVE / RECEIVE to themselves, all of them!


Namchuck: Unlike knowledge, which relies upon the right relationship between mind and the world, faith relies on nothing in the world. One can, in short, belief anything, as faith clearly does


iama:  Oh, that is not so!  The Bible is "in the world," and The Creation is "in the world." These are the foundations of THE FAITH of God.  Our Creator-God invites us to BELIEVE Him / The FAITH of God.


Namchuck: The Bible is in the world, was composed and inspired by men who live in the world, and refers to nothing outside the world that is real.



iama:  "Faith came!" Christ Jesus, God-Son, incarnate, "came."


iama:  Except for the one TRUE FAITH: God - Father-Son-Holy Spirit.


Namchuck: Islam also refers to itself as the "one TRUE FAITH". Islam and Christianity have a number of things in common, one of them being an incorrigible indifference to evidence.



iama:  The Bible documents / records historical, reality evidence from Adam until Christ Jesus and His Church, and on into the future to eternity.  Prophecy tells us that The Times of the Gentiles will end and The Time of Jacob's Troubles - 7 years - will begin.  


iama:


Ethiopians come to Christ in droves after watching film


"Ethiopia has a long history of undervaluing its women, says Ethiopia ministry director for JESUS Film Project, Damtew. Yet, the JESUS Film movie "Magdalena: Released from Shame" is an adaptation of the "JESUS" film that speaks directly to this overlooked group. As the JESUS Film project has started to show the film, they've been unable to stop its progress.


"Women are being healed at showings as they watch. Demons scream out and are then cast out," says Damtew. "It's just so amazing."


Namchuck: How does that lead to the [false] conclusion that Christianity is the "one TRUE FAITH"?


There are whole villages on Islands in the South Pacific converting (including once repressed women) to Mormonism. Would you concede that this constitutes evidence that Joseph Smith's religion is the "one TRUE FAITH" as many Mormon's believe?


It may be good for Ethiopian women, but all they may actually be achieving is swapping one form of unfreedom for another just as bad.


As H.L Mencken rightly said, 'The most costly of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind'.


The problem with faith is that it often makes us blind to the facts.



iama: Unbelief, also, makes us blind to the facts!


No! My quote was given to reference demon possession.


.

The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2012 - 1:29AM #15
Namchuck
Posts: 11,869


iama: Those in the Islamic religious faith BELIEVE the faith of Islam. Those in the Christian religious faith BELIEVE the faith of Christianity.


And the devotees of Islam have faith in the beliefs and teachings of Islam, beliefs and teachings that Christians believe are false. Hence, faith can lead to false beliefs, which is why faith has no value.


1. Islam is a faith; one statement of the Islamic faith is: "that Mohammed is the 'fulfillment of the prophets.'" Another statement of the Islamic faith is: that "the Koran's teaching that Jesus didn't die on the cross." If one believes these two statements of the faith of Islam, they will, of course, not believe the statement of Christian faith statement to the contrary.


2. Christian is a faith; one statement of the Christian faith is: that "Jesus died on the cross." Another statement of the Christian faith is: that "Christ Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophets."


The above, two faiths / beliefs are entirely different!  It is believing that leads to false holding a false faith!


It is also constitutes faith in such beliefs. There is no dodging it, iama. Faith can lead to false beliefs.


You examine the two faiths, and then choose which of the two you are going to believe.


It is the Christian faith / Christ Jesus, "Who came," Who is able to accomplish exactly what He has promised!


Neither religion is sustained by any justifiable evidence, thus, I reject both of them. One is as illegitimate as the other as far as that goes.





iama:  You ask yourself which of the myriad of faiths there are out there, and you choose to believe one of them.


Check out the FAITHS and their BELIEFS at the following site:


I live by reason, which can only function on the basis of sensory evidence and rational proof. Faith is the absence of sensory evidence and rational proof. Sometimes faith amounts to believing against the available evidence. Hence, I am not interested in faith. It only operates in the realm of myth and fairytale.



    Atheism

    Atheists are people who believe that god or gods are man-made constructs.


Atheists are people who believe that there is not only insufficient evidence to justify belief in God, and gods, but that there is sufficient evidence to justify disbelieving in God, and gods, or any other form of supernatural entity.




 



  



It is not possible that one human beings could examine all of the above FAITHS / BELIEFS, and then, BELIEVE / RECEIVE to themselves, all of them!


One doesn't have to "examine" all of the faiths of mankind to recognize that faith is not a path to truth. Faith, I repeat, is not a virtue. It heralds only gullibility. Religion is simply an early form of philosophy before man developed enough to have real philosophy




iama:  The Bible documents / records historical, reality evidence from Adam until Christ Jesus and His Church, and on into the future to eternity.  Prophecy tells us that The Times of the Gentiles will end and The Time of Jacob's Troubles - 7 years - will begin.  


The Bible is no such thing. The Bible is essentially myth punctuated here and there with fable and legend. It is an impotent God who has to rely on copies of copies and copies of translations based on copies to get his message across to mankind. There is no original documents, we don't know who most of the authors are, and many of the books of the Bible are pseudipigraphical. If the Bible were really the work of a perfect and loving God, it would be obviously superlative in every respect to anything that could be conceived by the human intellect alone. It woud be clear, concise, accurate, and consistent throughout. There is nothing more obvious to the student of the Bible that it is none of these things.



iama: Unbelief, also, makes us blind to the facts!


Unbelief that is not grounded in reason and logic can render one blind to facts.


So far, iama, your posts have been bereft of any facts. 


No! My quote was given to reference demon possession.


"Demon possession" is a superstition that educated people who understand both human psychology and the workings of the human mind and brain jetttisoned a long time ago. One may as well believe that walking under a ladder will bring one bad luck as to believe in demons, jinns, and all other sorts of spooky entities that occupy the feverish imaginations of children. 


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3 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2012 - 1:39PM #16
world citizen
Posts: 5,631

This thread has been transferred from Sacred Texts/The Bible.


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Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2012 - 7:13PM #17
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,851

Mar 4, 2012 -- 1:29AM, Namchuck wrote:



iama: Those in the Islamic religious faith BELIEVE the faith of Islam. Those in the Christian religious faith BELIEVE the faith of Christianity.


Namchuck: And the devotees of Islam have faith in the beliefs and teachings of Islam, beliefs and teachings that Christians believe are false. Hence, faith can lead to false beliefs, which is why faith has no value.



iama: The devotees of Islam BELIEVE the faith / beliefs of Islam.  The devotees of Christianity BELIEVE  the faith / beliefs of Christianity.


There is the faith of Islam.  Do you believe the faith of Islam?


There is the faith of Christianity. Do you believe the faith of Islam?


BECAUSE human beings BELIEVE false claims because of their human reasonings or non-reasonings, etc., they become devotees of false faiths.


iama: 1. Islam is a faith; one statement of the Islamic faith is: "that Mohammed is the 'fulfillment of the prophets.'" Another statement of the Islamic faith is: that "the Koran's teaching that Jesus didn't die on the cross." If one believes these two statements of the faith of Islam, they will, of course, not believe the statement of Christian faith statement to the contrary.


2. Christian is a faith; one statement of the Christian faith is: that "Jesus died on the cross." Another statement of the Christian faith is: that "Christ Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophets."


The above, two faiths / beliefs are entirely different!  It is believing that leads to false holding of a false faith!


Namchuck: It also constitutes faith in such beliefs. There is no dodging it, iama. Faith can lead to false beliefs.



iama:  What is "faith"?  Faith and Beliefs are synonymous.  It is what you believe regarding the FAITHS AND BELIEFS which is / can be dangerous.  If you BELIEVE the TRUE FAITH / BELIEFS, you are going to receive "power to become the sons of God / Christ Jesus' righteousness."


If you BELIEVE the false faith / beliefs, you are going to receive more of the same that you already possess: un-righteousness.


iama: You examine the two faiths, and then choose which of the two you are going to believe.


It is the Christian faith / Christ Jesus, "Who came," Who is able to accomplish exactly what He has promised!


Namchuck: Neither religion is sustained by any justifiable evidence, thus, I reject both of them. One is as illegitimate as the other as far as that goes.



iama: You reject these Christian martyrs, too?


Fox's Book of Martyrs


iama:  You ask yourself which of the myriad of faiths there are out there, and you choose to believe one of them.


Check out the FAITHS and their BELIEFS at the following site:


Namchuck: I live by reason, which can only function on the basis of sensory evidence and rational proof. Faith is the absence of sensory evidence and rational proof. Sometimes faith amounts to believing against the available evidence. Hence, I am not interested in faith. It only operates in the realm of myth and fairytale.



iama:  What is the origin of your reasoning abilities? 


quote Atheism

    Atheists are people who believe that god or gods are man-made constructs.


Namchuck: Atheists are people who believe that there is not only insufficient evidence to justify belief in God, and gods, but that there is sufficient evidence to justify disbelieving in God, and gods, or any other form of supernatural entity.



iama:  You have chosen!
 


iama: It is not possible that one human beings could examine all of the above FAITHS / BELIEFS, and then, BELIEVE / RECEIVE to themselves, all of them!


Namchuck: One doesn't have to "examine" all of the faiths of mankind to recognize that faith is not a path to truth. Faith, I repeat, is not a virtue. It heralds only gullibility. Religion is simply an early form of philosophy before man developed enough to have real philosophy



iama:  The FAITH revealed through the pages of The Bible, is reality, historical and validated by historical human beings who recorded throughout their relationship and fellowship with their Creator-God.  


iama:  The Bible documents / records historical, reality evidence from Adam until Christ Jesus and His Church, and on into the future to eternity.  Prophecy tells us that The Times of the Gentiles will end and The Time of Jacob's Troubles - 7 years - will begin.  


Namchuck: The Bible is no such thing. The Bible is essentially myth punctuated here and there with fable and legend. It is an impotent God who has to rely on copies of copies and copies of translations based on copies to get his message across to mankind. There is no original documents, we don't know who most of the authors are, and many of the books of the Bible are pseudipigraphical. If the Bible were really the work of a perfect and loving God, it would be obviously superlative in every respect to anything that could be conceived by the human intellect alone. It woud be clear, concise, accurate, and consistent throughout. There is nothing more obvious to the student of the Bible that it is none of these things.



iama:  Our Creator-God has chosen to accomplish His purposes via human agents, who are imperfect beings, as you well know! Human beings, all human beings, are going to be judged by their works, both as believers with Christ Jesus, and as un-believers separated from Christ Jesus.  Our Creator-God is JUST.  Our Creator-God is "no respecter of persons."  Therefore, He is NOT doing what you think that He should be doing.  He is NOT unbalancing the JUSTICE / balances.


iama: Unbelief, also, makes us blind to the facts!


Namchuck: Unbelief that is not grounded in reason and logic can render one blind to facts.


So far, iama, your posts have been bereft of any facts.



iama:  Humanism's rational-isms are useless, eternally.


iama: No! My quote was given to reference demon possession.


Namchuck: "Demon possession" is a superstition that educated people who understand both human psychology and the workings of the human mind and brain jetttisoned a long time ago. One may as well believe that walking under a ladder will bring one bad luck as to believe in demons, jinns, and all other sorts of spooky entities that occupy the feverish imaginations of children.



iama: Education and Humanism's rationalizations are useless, eternally.


Our Creator-God exists.  The Creation exists, and is His.  Human beings are lost sinners, in need of a Savior.  Satan is alive and well, still.  He took others with him when he rebelled.


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The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
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"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
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Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2012 - 9:03PM #18
Namchuck
Posts: 11,869

Things are getting a bit messy here, iama.


Faith is, as I've sufficiently shown, of no value, leading, as it does, to false beliefs. There is no getting away from this fact.


And every faith can proffer a list of martyrs, so your point about that is rendered completely irrelevant.


There isn't a scrap of evidence that the universe or the earth was created by some supernatural entity. In fact, we now have compelling natural explanations for both.


And in response to your inquiry, the origin of my capacity to reason is a brain that evolved over millions of years. 


Humanism, unlike religion, isn't compelled to invoke 'rationalisms'. Humanism is about what we know exists - mankind - and mankinds existential situation and how best we might respond to it. Humanism, guided by classical antiquity, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the modern scientific revolution, has identified the components of the good life, none of which require or demand the invocation of the supernatural. Nor does it need to bother itself with fanciful notions like "eternity", at least, not in the sense that believers use the term, given the compelling evidence that we do not survive the our own physical demise.


The human species is but one of thousands, if not millions, of species that have evolved during life's history. Man is not "lost in sin", but only requires education about his nature and condition, and not some fabled "Savior".  


"Satan" is a myth and no more "alive" than Batman or Thor.


With all of your posts, iama, you have yet to advance a single piece of evidence that even suggests that your faith is worth the time of day. Not a single one of Jesus' supposed promises has been kept; the Bible is permeated by inconsistencies and contradictions; and Christianity is simply a Jewish doomsday cult that got 'lucky' by becoming the state religion of Rome.


And the question I posed in my previous post still stands: What kind of God is it that opts to convey his most important message - the message of salvation - through such a highly fallible medium as man!? The answer to that can only be an extraordinarily weak and impotent God. All of this confirms that there no such message, no need to convey it, and no deity that it supposedly issued forth from in the first place.


Religion has cast itself as an explanatory system, but its embarrassing weakness has been progressively exposed with the maturing of philosophy and the systematic empirical investigation we call science.


Anything good in religion can be had elsewhere, and without the need to embrace unjustified beliefs. All religion really amounts to is a potent repository for powerful wishful structures.


Finally, well-conducted introspection dispels the dreams and deliriums on which the gods feed. This work on oneself requires philosophy. Not the obscurantism of faith, belief, fables, but reason and properly directed thought.


The strategies for evolving while standing on our feet include the sound use of our understanding, rational ordering of our minds, the implementation of a true critical will, and the mobilization of our intelligence. These things will dispel all the phantoms.


 




Mar 4, 2012 -- 7:13PM, iamachildofhis wrote:


Mar 4, 2012 -- 1:29AM, Namchuck wrote:



iama: Those in the Islamic religious faith BELIEVE the faith of Islam. Those in the Christian religious faith BELIEVE the faith of Christianity.


Namchuck: And the devotees of Islam have faith in the beliefs and teachings of Islam, beliefs and teachings that Christians believe are false. Hence, faith can lead to false beliefs, which is why faith has no value.



iama: The devotees of Islam BELIEVE the faith / beliefs of Islam.  The devotees of Christianity BELIEVE  the faith / beliefs of Christianity.


There is the faith of Islam.  Do you believe the faith of Islam?


There is the faith of Christianity. Do you believe the faith of Islam?


BECAUSE human beings BELIEVE false claims because of their human reasonings or non-reasonings, etc., they become devotees of false faiths.


iama: 1. Islam is a faith; one statement of the Islamic faith is: "that Mohammed is the 'fulfillment of the prophets.'" Another statement of the Islamic faith is: that "the Koran's teaching that Jesus didn't die on the cross." If one believes these two statements of the faith of Islam, they will, of course, not believe the statement of Christian faith statement to the contrary.


2. Christian is a faith; one statement of the Christian faith is: that "Jesus died on the cross." Another statement of the Christian faith is: that "Christ Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophets."


The above, two faiths / beliefs are entirely different!  It is believing that leads to false holding of a false faith!


Namchuck: It also constitutes faith in such beliefs. There is no dodging it, iama. Faith can lead to false beliefs.



iama:  What is "faith"?  Faith and Beliefs are synonymous.  It is what you believe regarding the FAITHS AND BELIEFS which is / can be dangerous.  If you BELIEVE the TRUE FAITH / BELIEFS, you are going to receive "power to become the sons of God / Christ Jesus' righteousness."


If you BELIEVE the false faith / beliefs, you are going to receive more of the same that you already possess: un-righteousness.


iama: You examine the two faiths, and then choose which of the two you are going to believe.


It is the Christian faith / Christ Jesus, "Who came," Who is able to accomplish exactly what He has promised!


Namchuck: Neither religion is sustained by any justifiable evidence, thus, I reject both of them. One is as illegitimate as the other as far as that goes.



iama: You reject these Christian martyrs, too?


Fox's Book of Martyrs


iama:  You ask yourself which of the myriad of faiths there are out there, and you choose to believe one of them.


Check out the FAITHS and their BELIEFS at the following site:


Namchuck: I live by reason, which can only function on the basis of sensory evidence and rational proof. Faith is the absence of sensory evidence and rational proof. Sometimes faith amounts to believing against the available evidence. Hence, I am not interested in faith. It only operates in the realm of myth and fairytale.



iama:  What is the origin of your reasoning abilities? 


quote Atheism

    Atheists are people who believe that god or gods are man-made constructs.


Namchuck: Atheists are people who believe that there is not only insufficient evidence to justify belief in God, and gods, but that there is sufficient evidence to justify disbelieving in God, and gods, or any other form of supernatural entity.



iama:  You have chosen!
 


iama: It is not possible that one human beings could examine all of the above FAITHS / BELIEFS, and then, BELIEVE / RECEIVE to themselves, all of them!


Namchuck: One doesn't have to "examine" all of the faiths of mankind to recognize that faith is not a path to truth. Faith, I repeat, is not a virtue. It heralds only gullibility. Religion is simply an early form of philosophy before man developed enough to have real philosophy



iama:  The FAITH revealed through the pages of The Bible, is reality, historical and validated by historical human beings who recorded throughout their relationship and fellowship with their Creator-God.  


iama:  The Bible documents / records historical, reality evidence from Adam until Christ Jesus and His Church, and on into the future to eternity.  Prophecy tells us that The Times of the Gentiles will end and The Time of Jacob's Troubles - 7 years - will begin.  


Namchuck: The Bible is no such thing. The Bible is essentially myth punctuated here and there with fable and legend. It is an impotent God who has to rely on copies of copies and copies of translations based on copies to get his message across to mankind. There is no original documents, we don't know who most of the authors are, and many of the books of the Bible are pseudipigraphical. If the Bible were really the work of a perfect and loving God, it would be obviously superlative in every respect to anything that could be conceived by the human intellect alone. It woud be clear, concise, accurate, and consistent throughout. There is nothing more obvious to the student of the Bible that it is none of these things.



iama:  Our Creator-God has chosen to accomplish His purposes via human agents, who are imperfect beings, as you well know! Human beings, all human beings, are going to be judged by their works, both as believers with Christ Jesus, and as un-believers separated from Christ Jesus.  Our Creator-God is JUST.  Our Creator-God is "no respecter of persons."  Therefore, He is NOT doing what you think that He should be doing.  He is NOT unbalancing the JUSTICE / balances.


iama: Unbelief, also, makes us blind to the facts!


Namchuck: Unbelief that is not grounded in reason and logic can render one blind to facts.


So far, iama, your posts have been bereft of any facts.



iama:  Humanism's rational-isms are useless, eternally.


iama: No! My quote was given to reference demon possession.


Namchuck: "Demon possession" is a superstition that educated people who understand both human psychology and the workings of the human mind and brain jetttisoned a long time ago. One may as well believe that walking under a ladder will bring one bad luck as to believe in demons, jinns, and all other sorts of spooky entities that occupy the feverish imaginations of children.



iama: Education and Humanism's rationalizations are useless, eternally.


Our Creator-God exists.  The Creation exists, and is His.  Human beings are lost sinners, in need of a Savior.  Satan is alive and well, still.  He took others with him when he rebelled.


.





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3 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2012 - 10:12AM #19
Elizabethmarkley
Posts: 9

I always find it interesting when some christians use the bible as proof that the bible is accurate. Any book written by man has potential to have flaws. Even our dictionaries and encyclopedias have flaws.


Although Ima does make one very good point and that is that faith is necessary in all religions. Faith is the very foundation of every religion. If you were to take any religion and break it down by its beliefs and/or rules and guidelines you would see that it takes a great deal of faith to believe any of that. I am a very religious person and I know that to someone who believes different then me, my beliefs would sound unrealistic and unbelievable. But I have faith in them.


As far as Jesus being a historical fact....well that's possible, but only if you accept all of the other religions icons as historical fact as well. The bible was not the only religious book that documented the beliefs of its people and of their icons. The Egyptians kept a very detailed record of their beliefs and icons. Are you saying that theirs are not historical fact, but yet yours are? How about the Greeks? Theirs are well documented also. Are you doubting their authenticity as well?


My point is that to say that Jesus is historical fact because it says so in the bible is suggesting that Horus is historical fact because it says so in the book of the dead, Or that Zeus is historical fact because of the writings of Homer and of Orpheus. You cannot validate one, while negating the others.


If that was not your point and I misread you then I apologize. I am just tired of hearing about "biblical fact" when so many other religions have books to back up their claims as well, yet they are labled as mythology.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 16, 2012 - 2:36AM #20
Namchuck
Posts: 11,869

Mar 15, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Elizabethmarkley wrote:


I always find it interesting when some christians use the bible as proof that the bible is accurate. Any book written by man has potential to have flaws. Even our dictionaries and encyclopedias have flaws.


Although Ima does make one very good point and that is that faith is necessary in all religions. Faith is the very foundation of every religion. If you were to take any religion and break it down by its beliefs and/or rules and guidelines you would see that it takes a great deal of faith to believe any of that. I am a very religious person and I know that to someone who believes different then me, my beliefs would sound unrealistic and unbelievable. But I have faith in them.


As far as Jesus being a historical fact....well that's possible, but only if you accept all of the other religions icons as historical fact as well. The bible was not the only religious book that documented the beliefs of its people and of their icons. The Egyptians kept a very detailed record of their beliefs and icons. Are you saying that theirs are not historical fact, but yet yours are? How about the Greeks? Theirs are well documented also. Are you doubting their authenticity as well?


My point is that to say that Jesus is historical fact because it says so in the bible is suggesting that Horus is historical fact because it says so in the book of the dead, Or that Zeus is historical fact because of the writings of Homer and of Orpheus. You cannot validate one, while negating the others.


If that was not your point and I misread you then I apologize. I am just tired of hearing about "biblical fact" when so many other religions have books to back up their claims as well, yet they are labled as mythology.




You make some very good points, Elizabethmarkley. It will be interesting to see if, or how, iama responds to them.


Faith is, as iama has to concede, the anchorage of all religions, and faith is the absence of sensory evidence and rational proof. Consequently, all objects of faith inhabit the same field. Reiterating your excellent point, it would be ridiculous for an advocate of one faith to claim to another that his or her absence of sensory evidence and rational proof was superior or greater than someone else's absence of sensory evidence and rational proof.


This is why I have said that, if faith can lead to false beliefs, then what good is faith?




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