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Switch to Forum Live View Is there an ultimate truth?
3 years ago  ::  Nov 04, 2011 - 5:41PM #181
G.flower
Posts: 3,598

Group hug!

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 04, 2011 - 6:07PM #182
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Nov 4, 2011 -- 5:41PM, G.flower wrote:


Group hug!




Yes!!

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2011 - 11:46AM #183
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Nov 3, 2011 -- 4:56PM, williejhonlo wrote:


Nov 3, 2011 -- 1:41PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


Nov 3, 2011 -- 1:12PM, williejhonlo wrote:


You could say life is not suffering, but, through life we experience some suffering.






We have to look on it as suffering, before we see say it is suffering.



I would say we would have to experience pain in some form even before we could have a concept of suffering. Do you think experiencing pain is suffereing? 





No

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2011 - 12:48PM #184
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Willie.  I want you to look at the definition that you provided here.  Pay close attention to the first definition. 


Nov 4, 2011 -- 12:54PM, williejhonlo wrote:


(1) The conditions of one who suffers; The bearing of pain and distress.




In this definition, "suffering" is not necessarily the pain itself, but the condition of the person who bears the pain.  On this thread, there are people that have pain.  Yet we do not have the mindset that the pain is "suffering". 



The mindset really is the important part.  Do you see the pain as something that is inflicted upon you, and must be endured, or something else? 



2 years ago yesterday, I underwent brain surgery to remove a tumor.  They went in through a 2 inch square hole that they cut in my skull.  They were very careful to only remove tumor, but to this day, I do not have hearing in my right ear, my face is numb on the right side from the side of my mouth to bottom of my jaw, and I have no sense of taste on the right half of my tongue.  After the surgery itself, I spent 3 months learning to walk again.  I am not telling you this because I want your sympathy.  Far from it.  Instead of viewing this as suffering that I must endure, everyday this reminds me what could have been.  2 years ago yesterday I was sure that I was going to die.  I knew, absolutely knew, that I was going to die.  No fear.  No concern.  Just the knowledge that I was going to die.  I confronted my own mortality, and as I looked back on my life I was content with the way I had lived it.  I had no regrets, no concerns.  I did the best that I could with the time that I had, and that was it. 



So now.  Instead of me seeing the residual pain and sensory loss as something that is inflicted upon me and I must endure, I see it as a reminder that I am still alive.  I get to spend more time with my wife.  I get to watch my nephew grow up.  I get to try new foods and drinks and enjoy old favorites.  I get to feel cold, or warm, or hungry, or thirsty or full, or tired, or scared, or lonely, or happy, or loved, or entertained.  I get to feel pain when I stub my toe, or a hangover if I drink too much, sadness when a loved one passes, joy at friends and family.  These things are not suffering.  These things are joyous.  I thank the gods for every day that my head hurts because every day that my head hurts is a day that my head can hurt. 



If you want to give up, if you want to see this life as something that must be endured. If you want to sell yourself to a figure that promises to give you something better, fine.  I am grateful every f'ing day for what I have.  If you are so convinced that it is "suffering" and are so ready to give it away for something else, go right ahead.  Leave this world to those that care about it. 



69. All wretched is no man, | though never so sick;
Some from their sons have joy,
Some win it from kinsmen, | and some from their wealth,
And some from worthy works.


70. It is better to live | than to lie a corpse,
The live man catches the cow;
I saw flames rise | for the rich man's pyre,
And before his door he lay dead.


71. The lame rides a horse, | the handless is herdsman,
The deaf in battle is bold;
The blind man is better | than one that is burned,
No good can come of a corpse.



Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2011 - 12:49PM #185
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634



Nov 4, 2011 -- 4:59PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


((((((Cap))))))







Nov 4, 2011 -- 5:41PM, G.flower wrote:


Group hug!





Did I miss the hug?


Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2011 - 1:01PM #186
wohali
Posts: 10,227

When I had my quad bypass done I experienced quite a bit of pain after the surgery. Having your breastbone split and ribs spread hurts. I wasn't suffering, I was healing.


 


 

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2011 - 1:39PM #187
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Nov 5, 2011 -- 12:49PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:




Nov 4, 2011 -- 4:59PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


((((((Cap))))))







Nov 4, 2011 -- 5:41PM, G.flower wrote:


Group hug!





Did I miss the hug?





Never, There are always hugs for you. (((ALL)))

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2011 - 1:47PM #188
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

(((((((((((((Cap)))))))))))))))))

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2011 - 2:23PM #189
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,599

Nov 4, 2011 -- 3:59PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


Nov 4, 2011 -- 12:54PM, williejhonlo wrote:


Nov 3, 2011 -- 10:21PM, G.flower wrote:


Nov 3, 2011 -- 8:45PM, williejhonlo wrote:


Nov 3, 2011 -- 6:48PM, mainecaptain wrote:


why willie do you want the world to be full of suffering? That is what you are arguing for.



Why do I want the world to be full of suffering?  Who says it's about want? Who wishes for old age, disease, drought, excessive heat and cold, natural disasters that cause damage to property and create homelessness, these things just happen.




Good grief, you get the tarnished fake star for joining the half empty camp. I'm old and it is quite freeing, I've had diseases, it's part of life, I've seen droughts, they end and excessive heat and cold too. I've seen natural disasters, people spring back.


So do rainbows, pine trees, flowers, organisms, puppy dogs licking your hand and cats making you laugh when they attack your toes. So do babies learning to crawl and laugh, so does Halloween with all the trick or treaters having a great time.


These things just happen too. Did I mention organisms?



I'm not saying that suffering is a ever constant, but if no ever experienced suffering, how would anyone be able to understand the word or for that matter create the word and it's meaning. 


The dictionary meaning: (1) The conditions of one who suffers; The bearing of pain and distress.(2) An instance of pain and distress.




 




As I thought. This a worldview thing. 


Willie, you should know I have bad knees. Bad, bad knees. I have had multiple surgeries on them to correct various problems, and the end result is that they are weak and they hurt. A lot. A day when they don't hurt is an amazing thing anymore. I have been pushing my doctor for a knee replacement surgery that he doesn't want to do until I am fifty. I have been pushing for this thing since my 30th birthday. They hurt.


But I have never suffered. I get up in the morning, call my knees inappropriate words, feed the cats who are starving because they have never been fed one day in their life and if I think I fed them the day before well I am just wrong about that so there!, and get on about my day.


My doctor is reluctant to prescribe anything strong than an NSAID for my knees, saying he doesn't want me to get hooked on pain medication. Fortunately, most of my day is spent behind a desk, because I have been known to fall when I am out and about. My knees can't always support me.


You would probably call this suffering. As a pagan, I call this a little challenge in the grand adventure. I have things to do, so my knees can just suck it. I will do what needs to be done with or without their help. That isn't suffering, that is just an encouragement for me to get things done a little faster so I can go home and prop my legs up under a heating pad.



You are right sac, I would call what you are going through suffering. Good luck to you, and I hope there is a medical remedy for you in the near future. With kind regards, willie

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2011 - 2:42PM #190
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,599

Nov 5, 2011 -- 12:48PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


Willie.  I want you to look at the definition that you provided here.  Pay close attention to the first definition. 


Nov 4, 2011 -- 12:54PM, williejhonlo wrote:


(1) The conditions of one who suffers; The bearing of pain and distress.




In this definition, "suffering" is not necessarily the pain itself, but the condition of the person who bears the pain.  On this thread, there are people that have pain.  Yet we do not have the mindset that the pain is "suffering". 



The mindset really is the important part.  Do you see the pain as something that is inflicted upon you, and must be endured, or something else? 



2 years ago yesterday, I underwent brain surgery to remove a tumor.  They went in through a 2 inch square hole that they cut in my skull.  They were very careful to only remove tumor, but to this day, I do not have hearing in my right ear, my face is numb on the right side from the side of my mouth to bottom of my jaw, and I have no sense of taste on the right half of my tongue.  After the surgery itself, I spent 3 months learning to walk again.  I am not telling you this because I want your sympathy.  Far from it.  Instead of viewing this as suffering that I must endure, everyday this reminds me what could have been.  2 years ago yesterday I was sure that I was going to die.  I knew, absolutely knew, that I was going to die.  No fear.  No concern.  Just the knowledge that I was going to die.  I confronted my own mortality, and as I looked back on my life I was content with the way I had lived it.  I had no regrets, no concerns.  I did the best that I could with the time that I had, and that was it. 



So now.  Instead of me seeing the residual pain and sensory loss as something that is inflicted upon me and I must endure, I see it as a reminder that I am still alive.  I get to spend more time with my wife.  I get to watch my nephew grow up.  I get to try new foods and drinks and enjoy old favorites.  I get to feel cold, or warm, or hungry, or thirsty or full, or tired, or scared, or lonely, or happy, or loved, or entertained.  I get to feel pain when I stub my toe, or a hangover if I drink too much, sadness when a loved one passes, joy at friends and family.  These things are not suffering.  These things are joyous.  I thank the gods for every day that my head hurts because every day that my head hurts is a day that my head can hurt. 



If you want to give up, if you want to see this life as something that must be endured. If you want to sell yourself to a figure that promises to give you something better, fine.  I am grateful every f'ing day for what I have.  If you are so convinced that it is "suffering" and are so ready to give it away for something else, go right ahead.  Leave this world to those that care about it. 



69. All wretched is no man, | though never so sick;
Some from their sons have joy,
Some win it from kinsmen, | and some from their wealth,
And some from worthy works.


70. It is better to live | than to lie a corpse,
The live man catches the cow;
I saw flames rise | for the rich man's pyre,
And before his door he lay dead.


71. The lame rides a horse, | the handless is herdsman,
The deaf in battle is bold;
The blind man is better | than one that is burned,
No good can come of a corpse.





I agree, how you approach your trials and tribulations goes a long way toward your recovery. I praise you for your perseverance, lesser people would be asking? Why God? Why me? Remain steadfast my brother.

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