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3 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2011 - 10:25PM #1
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344
This board can be trying for a lot of people, because so many others come in and basically demand you believe what they tell you to believe.  So, from the start many of the threads here turn into fights.

A certain old man pronounced 'doom' upon the world recently, and was proven wrong for the second time in as many tries.  His followers have been as unwilling as any other fanatic to let go of the lie and return to saner thought, which is a shame in itself, but the event has led some folks to trash reasonable beliefs that they don't happen to hold themselves.  Part of that is due to the interpretation of Scripture.  

Now, not everyone believes the same writings are holy writ, and some believe it's all nonsense.  But even when people agree on Scripture, there can still be honest differences of opinion.  Consider, for example, that the Jewish Tanakh is essentially the same as the Christian's Old Testament, and a number of verses that Jews believe apply to the Messiah are also believed by Christians to apply to the Messiah; yet Jews and Christians do not agree on the identity of the Messiah.  From this we can see that honest and sincere believers can still reach different conclusions.  As a result, when someone posts verses they think are significant, it cannot prove their case no matter how strongly they believe the verses to be true.  And frankly, posting the same thing over and over again is just plain rude.

It happens that interpretation often makes the difference in what conclusion is true, and which is just a fanciful story.  People who like their selected verses will call this discernment, but in fact it's just noise if you can't explain yourself.  Those who come to boards like this and try to score points or 'prove' their opinion is right are generally immature and insecure, but hopefully they can grow up and learn over time, and come to learn from other members instead of trying to defeat them.

That's sort of my secret.  That is, I am a fundamentalist Christian, convinced of the truth of the Gospel and the value of the Bible in guiding people to righteousness.  But, I also know that God has the power, not me.  I'm just a bum that God took care of, and healed.  Most folks I know are just as virtuous as I have ever been, if not more.  So, I don't plan on talking down to anyone, and while I will speak freely about Christ to anyone who wants to hear, I don't plan on using the Gospel as a stick to beat someone down.  I'm also an accountant, sort of, and I learned long ago that while someone can play with the numbers, the truth has a way of coming out, and if it's true for something as mundane as money, it tends to be even more true for things that matter in life.  I trust God more than myself.

Anyway, I said somewhere back in another place that Good and Evil exist, and therefore there is a source for each.  And purity dictates that there is an ultimate source for Good and that power is God.  Love, hope and faith, and by the way pretty much in that order, are given to us all freely and with God's plan that we live as good people.  So, when we talk about salvation and destiny and things like that, we pretty much have to start with the truth that God made us all, loves us all, and so He wants us all to be good, happy people who learn and love what is right.  We all have the opportunity to be that person.  So, whenever someone tries to suggest that God no longer loves His children, and is cruel enough to raise people to life with no hope, frankly that person does not know the Father well enough to see that such a claim cannot be true.

Choice is given Man, plainly:

Deuteronomy 1:13
Deuteronomy 30:19
Joshua 3:12 
Joshua 4:2
2 Samuel 24:12
2 Kings 18:32
Proverbs 8:10
Proverbs 12:26
Isaiah 56:4
John 7:17

And if Man chooses badly, he may repent:

1 Kings 8:47
2 Chronicles 6:37
2 Chronicles 32:26
Proverbs 1:23
Isaiah 59:20
Jeremiah 15:19
Jeremiah 18:8
Jeremiah 31:19
Jeremiah 34:15
Ezekiel 14:6
Ezekiel 18:30
Ezekiel 33:12
Matthew 3:2
Matthew 4:17
Mark 1:4
Mark 6:12
Luke 5:32
Luke 15:7
Acts 3:19
Acts 11:18
2 Peter 3:9

The door is not closed.  And anyone who knew the Father, would know that He opens such doors, eagerly and with great hope for us.

I hope this may begin a fruitful discussion. 

        
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2011 - 10:55PM #2
gorm-sionnach
Posts: 1,663

Jun 15, 2011 -- 10:25PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:

This board can be trying for a lot of people, because so many others come in and basically demand you believe what they tell you to believe.  So, from the start many of the threads here turn into fights.

A certain old man pronounced 'doom' upon the world recently, and was proven wrong for the second time in as many tries.  His followers have been as unwilling as any other fanatic to let go of the lie and return to saner thought, which is a shame in itself, but the event has led some folks to trash reasonable beliefs that they don't happen to hold themselves.  Part of that is due to the interpretation of Scripture.  

Now, not everyone believes the same writings are holy writ, and some believe it's all nonsense.  But even when people agree on Scripture, there can still be honest differences of opinion.  Consider, for example, that the Jewish Tanakh is essentially the same as the Christian's Old Testament, and a number of verses that Jews believe apply to the Messiah are also believed by Christians to apply to the Messiah; yet Jews and Christians do not agree on the identity of the Messiah.  From this we can see that honest and sincere believers can still reach different conclusions.  As a result, when someone posts verses they think are significant, it cannot prove their case no matter how strongly they believe the verses to be true.  And frankly, posting the same thing over and over again is just plain rude.

It happens that interpretation often makes the difference in what conclusion is true, and which is just a fanciful story.  People who like their selected verses will call this discernment, but in fact it's just noise if you can't explain yourself.  Those who come to boards like this and try to score points or 'prove' their opinion is right are generally immature and insecure, but hopefully they can grow up and learn over time, and come to learn from other members instead of trying to defeat them.

That's sort of my secret.  That is, I am a fundamentalist Christian, convinced of the truth of the Gospel and the value of the Bible in guiding people to righteousness.  But, I also know that God has the power, not me.  I'm just a bum that God took care of, and healed.  Most folks I know are just as virtuous as I have ever been, if not more.  So, I don't plan on talking down to anyone, and while I will speak freely about Christ to anyone who wants to hear, I don't plan on using the Gospel as a stick to beat someone down.  I'm also an accountant, sort of, and I learned long ago that while someone can play with the numbers, the truth has a way of coming out, and if it's true for something as mundane as money, it tends to be even more true for things that matter in life.  I trust God more than myself.

Anyway, I said somewhere back in another place that Good and Evil exist, and therefore there is a source for each.  And purity dictates that there is an ultimate source for Good and that power is God.  Love, hope and faith, and by the way pretty much in that order, are given to us all freely and with God's plan that we live as good people.  So, when we talk about salvation and destiny and things like that, we pretty much have to start with the truth that God made us all, loves us all, and so He wants us all to be good, happy people who learn and love what is right.  We all have the opportunity to be that person.  So, whenever someone tries to suggest that God no longer loves His children, and is cruel enough to raise people to life with no hope, frankly that person does not know the Father well enough to see that such a claim cannot be true.

Choice is given Man, plainly:

Deuteronomy 1:13
Deuteronomy 30:19
Joshua 3:12 
Joshua 4:2
2 Samuel 24:12
2 Kings 18:32
Proverbs 8:10
Proverbs 12:26
Isaiah 56:4
John 7:17

And if Man chooses badly, he may repent:

1 Kings 8:47
2 Chronicles 6:37
2 Chronicles 32:26
Proverbs 1:23
Isaiah 59:20
Jeremiah 15:19
Jeremiah 18:8
Jeremiah 31:19
Jeremiah 34:15
Ezekiel 14:6
Ezekiel 18:30
Ezekiel 33:12
Matthew 3:2
Matthew 4:17
Mark 1:4
Mark 6:12
Luke 5:32
Luke 15:7
Acts 3:19
Acts 11:18
2 Peter 3:9

The door is not closed.  And anyone who knew the Father, would know that He opens such doors, eagerly and with great hope for us.

I hope this may begin a fruitful discussion. 

        




This is all well and good (and while I disagree with a lot of your beliefs) at least you are seeking a dialogue, as opposed to diatribe.


I would, however, suggest that if you do want to continue this discussion, that the "end times" forum is not the best place to do so, because your post above is, well off topic. You would probably find more fertile (and on topic) ground in the multifaith or interfaith dialogue forums.


-Gorm.

Truth in our hearts, Strength in our arms, Fulfillment in our tongues.
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2011 - 11:08PM #3
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344

Actually gorm-sionnach, I did mean it for this board, because I wish to discuss end-times views from different perspectives.  That is, we all have some thoughts and interest in the question, or we would not come here at all, n'cest pas?


I do believe in the Second Coming of Christ Jesus (Capitals and all), but I would like to hear other opinions and perspectives.   And, presuming it is possible, I'd like to bring some balance to the image of Christians as foam-mouthed hysterical screamers.


I consider that most human experience comes from a valid source, and so the comparison with Christian accounts with, say, Hindu and Zorastrian accounts could prove enlightening.


Billy Graham I am not.  Curious, though, I am.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2011 - 11:18PM #4
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

Is it possible to discuss eschatology in basically theoretical terms?


I know that some faiths see the End of the World as part of a cycle, with the Universe starting again after it's all over....   And some do not.


Are there faiths which don't have an 'End of Days' concept?

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2011 - 11:20PM #5
SecondSonOfDavid
Posts: 3,344

Ooooooooooooo, good question!  Maybe the Buddhists?

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier.
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2011 - 11:11AM #6
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

The problem, as I see it, is that the entire concept of "end-times" defies rational debate. The fact that our sun will someday--maybe 5 billion years from now--evolve into a red giant that will consume the inner planets, including Earth, is a scientific model that owes nothing to biblical notions of end-times. In a religious sense, end-times implies that God will bring existence as we know it to an end--presumably with salvation into eternal spiritual life for some but not all. How can anyone argue rationally for that notion?


First, it implies that God is a destroyer.


Second, it implies that God will destroy some but will save others. The basis for such distinction is, according to different religious views, whether one's life has been characterized by "good" or "evil" deeds, whether one has accepted Jesus as lord and savior, or whether God has determined in advance who shall be saved according to unfathomable criteria or maybe just his own whimsically random assignment.


To me, both of these points are insulting to God. And for those who regard the Bible as God's word, there is a third objection to "end-times" notions: Ecclesiastes 1:4 says that the Earth abides or endures forever. I am aware that Christian websites argue that the Hebrew word used here does not actually mean "forever" but only for an undefinably long period. I do not speak any Hebrew, so I cannot comment on that, but even if I accept it as accurate, saying that the Earth will endure for an undefinably long period of time in no way points to God as destroyer at the end of that undefined period.


So my take on end-times prophesy is that it is an angry notion of an angry god created by angry people who validate their anger by twisting and cherry-picking from the Bible. How does one argue rationally about such a concept?


 

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2011 - 11:45AM #7
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

HFC, as far as I can tell, the word 'olam' (which is used in Ecc1:4) basically translates as 'seemingly infinite', 'too big to measure' - it is used for TIME ('forever') and also for SPACE ('universe') ..... 


In Ecc 1:4 we find 'olam' is ? modified by another word which appears to my very elementary awareness of Hebrew grammar to be related to a word we translate as 'abides' or 'sustains....  There's a children's song "On three things the universe is sustained:  on the Torah, on prayer, and on deeds of lovingkindness".  So the idea of 'enduring forever' isn't necessarily a distortion.


(I'm at my sister's and she's blaring rowdy rock music, which is hardly conducive to this conversation....it's like 'brain worms'.....EEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!) 


Anyway....Sometimes there are 'modifiers'  (oh, CRAP!!!!  She's singing in the shower : (((  off-key, too!)   which translate as 'forever and ever', which I take to mean actual complete eternity beyond all time. 


I will poke around and see if I can find out anything more.....


Judaism really isn't very specific about the 'End of Days' , except to say that the Moschiach ben Dovid comes and begins the Messianic Age.  It has always seemed to me as an individual that that Age was very very far off and more a statement of our faith than anything we would expect to see ourselves.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2011 - 11:49AM #8
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

HfC that is why I often say, they (generic they) are making their own god look bad, like a tyrant and ogre. In short evil.


I do not believe said god is evil, but a certain type of Christian work really hard at making him appear that way.


And worse again this same type of Christian makes non Christians leery of Christians in general, which is sad, because most Christians are not nuts. At least not any more nuts then humans in general


I hope that came out right, but suspect it does not sound quite right, please forgive my lack of eloquence

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2011 - 11:56AM #9
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Most of the American Indian religions that I'm familiar with don't have "end times" as part of their beliefs, with the notable exception of the Hopi. The Hopi teach that there have been different worlds, each supplanting the last. If I remember correctly, we are in the Fourth World and are approaching the Fifth.


The others that I'm aware of have a general concept that by continuing our sacred ways, we help to insure that the Earth keeps turning for all peoples. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2011 - 12:27PM #10
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Jun 15, 2011 -- 11:08PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


Actually gorm-sionnach, I did mean it for this board, because I wish to discuss end-times views from different perspectives.  That is, we all have some thoughts and interest in the question, or we would not come here at all, n'cest pas?


I do believe in the Second Coming of Christ Jesus (Capitals and all), but I would like to hear other opinions and perspectives.   And, presuming it is possible, I'd like to bring some balance to the image of Christians as foam-mouthed hysterical screamers.


I consider that most human experience comes from a valid source, and so the comparison with Christian accounts with, say, Hindu and Zorastrian accounts could prove enlightening.


Billy Graham I am not.  Curious, though, I am.




 


Ok.  I've got a perspective.  I do believe in Ragnarok, but beyond that, I do feel that it offers an interesting contrast to the Christian version of the end times. 


 


Just general speaking, in the Christian version, Jesus comes back, and cleans house.  People can't do anything about it.  In Ragnarok, people are active participants.  It tells not just of a dark bloody time, a time where great losses are experience, but a time, even though at great cost, odds and evil will be overcome.  It tells of the deeds of the gods and heroes in fighting the oath breakers and giants.  What it does not tell of is those who do nothing.  There are no stories of people falling to their knees and begging in supplication.  The lore tells no tales of downtrodden people seeking someone else to avenge their wrongs for them.  It tells of fighting against seemingly insurmountable odds, and succeeding, but often at great personal cost. 


 


Perhaps we can discuss the psychology of this, and perhaps not.  In my opinion Revelation reflects the beliefs of a people who have had their spirits broken, while Ragnarok reflects a people who are defiant.  I say perhaps not because of myself more than you.  In the end, I view those that give up and either let, or hope for someone/thing else to solve the problems for them with contempt, and those that are proponents of such ideology with disdain. 


 


all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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