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4 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2011 - 9:16AM #31
teilhard
Posts: 50,876
"God" Is "God" ...
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2011 - 2:12PM #32
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Feb 6, 2011 -- 1:10AM, Jm8 wrote:




Not not everyone worships your god one way or the other. I know you don't want to believe it, but all gods are not one god.

Because if you believe this, you are saying your god lies, overtly and deliberately, lies to people.
Maybe you worship a god that has several aspects and personalities. I don't know, I don't know who you worship and don't really care.

But your god is not in any form any of my gods or SG's gods. No, not any aspect of your god.

I trust and believe my gods over your words, and your links.

It is very dishonourable of you to insist my gods are aspects of your god. It is also very arrogant on your part to claim such.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2011 - 3:05PM #33
Jm8
Posts: 784
You basically say "I don't know but you're wrong." This is neither philosophy nor theology since they need arguments.

> It is very dishonourable of you to insist my gods are aspects of your god. It is also very arrogant on your part to claim such.

It remains to be seen. Who are your god/s? What are their names, forms, qualities, activities?

Hope this helps. Hare Krsna
Your servant, bh. Jan

www.vrindavan-dham.com
www.veda.harekrsna.cz
www.krishna.com

dvaitaM bandhAya mokSAt prAk prApte bodhe manISayA
bhaktyarthaM kalpitam dvaitaM advaitAd api sundaram

"Duality is bondage before moksa and wisdom after realization. The duality accepted for the purpose of bhakti is sweeter than even non-duality." (from mangalacarana to Advaitasiddhi sara sangraha by Madhusudana Sarasvati, former advaitin)

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2011 - 12:12AM #34
Markezuma
Posts: 289
I want to thank you all again for commenting. I will re-read the last few days of posts to get a clearer picture of why my perceptions and the assertion that they may be objective truth is so offensive. But I will again say that I do believe in objective truth. I don't own it and try very hard to avoid seeming like I claim to own it. But I do think that IT exists. God, or a god, or gods are either real or they are not, and I hope that by discussing my perception of their identity and attributes I can refine that perception and come closer to truth.

In putting up the original post I honestly thought I was opening up a completely different can of worms, so I'm trying to soak in a lot information of unexplored territory (unexplored by me at least). I'm sorry if my exploration bugs some of you and hope that I can see the various points of view expressed here in a reasonable way, but I'm not ready to give up this line of dialogue just yet.
"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2011 - 7:52AM #35
Markezuma
Posts: 289

Feb 5, 2011 -- 2:06PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:

Okay.  Been reading this thread and just got to say it bugs.  Bugs Bugs Bugs!

The word "God" here is being abused worse than a little girl on Law and Order:Special Victims Unit.



My perception that there is on God stems primarily from a Judeo-Christian upbringing. But I've chosen to intentionally break from that tradition by talking about God as Her. If the effect is to make Her seem like a victim of abuse, that is an unintended consequence that I hope to overcome by continuing to discuss this.

Feb 5, 2011 -- 2:06PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


Every time I read the word God, I want to yell "who are you talking about?" 

You, Mark, seem-- seem, mind you, it is not completely clear-- to be talking about some big uber being that is encompassing all. And you choose to give this creature the name of "God" but as I said, it is unclear enough to make your posts confusing.

Probably because you are trying to encompass the rest of us into you UPG, which is something I refuse to let you do.  So how about a name for your uber being, rather than just a job title?  You give us a name, or I will start address each of your posts by asking which god you are talking about.




A "big uber being" (I'd rather use creator and judge) either does or doesn't exist. I happen to believe that She does but recognize that my belief is nowhere near proof to you that this is the case.

Like I said at the start I've been reading the Koran. It doesn't use a personal name for God (like Jehovah or Jesus), but instead asserts that attributes like All-powerful and All-merciful constitute names. I suspect that my writing here is reflecting some of the ambiguity between that perception and my aforementioned upbringing. If there is anything specific I can do to clarify where I fall on that spectrum (if you are the least bit concerned how my thinking is evolving) then let me know.

As for my experiences with the divine, I am not even sure that they qualify as UPGs. I like to think that listening to God can be shared, but realize that not everyone does or even wants to share the sense that I have. If you don't then I'm not trying to force you. If you care to relate why you don't it will help me understand the limits of my perceptions, but if you think I'm a lost cause from  the start I don't intend to push you.

Feb 5, 2011 -- 2:06PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


Or maybe I'll just call your god Fred, how about that?

Because just call this thing god doesn't address the fact that the rest of us have gods that have nothing to do with your UPG.
And many of us consider your UPG, well, your UPG.  Nothing to do with me.  I don't worship your Fred.



Since you've chosen to address my perception of God with a male name, I am forced to assume that I have utterly failed to make a clean break from Judeo-Christian tradition by referring to Her in the feminine. If you want me to talk about my perception of God with a personal name I'd prefer something gender neutral like Robin or Sam. In doing this I don't mean to imply that God isn't real only that God (a real entity) is not Robin (my perception of that entity). I hope that distinction doesn't just add to the confusion that cause my posts to bug you.

"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2011 - 11:03AM #36
Markezuma
Posts: 289

Feb 6, 2011 -- 1:10AM, Jm8 wrote:

The identity of God is clear from the links I gave above.

God's names are both job titles and words describing His features, qualities and activities. They're endless. One of them is Devadeva, in Sanskrit "God of gods". Actually all names are His, as Vedanta sutra says. In this sense Zeus, Odin, Mithra, etc. are primarily names of God and secondarily names of these specific devas.

Who are those gods other members speak about?

> ...the rest of us have gods that have nothing to do with your UPG.

Given the above, it's not true. If one god wouldn't be aware of another ones, beginning with God, he'd be ignorant. But gods aren't ignorant, otherwise they couldn't be in the position of gods.

> I don't worship your Fred.

Everyone worships Him directly or indirectly.



I think there is a question of credibility in the links you posted as far as some of the people to whom you are posting are concerned. I have some understanding and respect for Vedic scripture but it would help to make it more clear if you gave specific examples of descriptions of divine identity and why they are moving to you.

I'm not convinced that all names point to one God, but that is in part because I find it hard to associate figures like Zeus and Odin (who I do not believe were ever real) with Jehovah (which is at least one designation of a real entity). But that is a matter of conditioning on my part, and I have occasionally met people who asserted that they are real too or instead.

If there are gods then yes they would certainly be aware of each other and would probably even interact at least occasionally. If we can acquire accurate knowledge of God or gods then they are in an even better position to discern the truth of who they each are and what they are like. Even a UPG if it is an accurate representation of reality will reveal facts about those higher levels of reality.

The notion that we all worship one God directly or indirectly is one with which I have trouble. People can choose to worship or not and not all objects of worship are equal in my mind. If for instance someone worships the free market I don't think that necessarily translates to being devoted to a higher power or even an act of good will. And if a person refuses to worship anything I don't think they are indirectly worshiping against their will. I think I know what sacrificialgoddess means when she chooses not to worship "my Fred" and certainly respect her wishes in that regard.

"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2011 - 2:02PM #37
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634
In the discussion that Mark and I were having, yes, there were some moments where, in the sake of striving for eventual clarity, immediate vocabulary issues were glossed over. 


Jm8,

My gods are not factets of your god, nor do they mesh with your god in any way.  I don't say that your god does not exist, don't be so ignorant as to try to cram my beliefs into your's.

Teil,

You sound like a toddler that just discovered his penis, and screams that it is the only one because it's the only one he has seen. 

Just like a penis, many of us have our own.  You don't have to tell us how much you like yours.   


Mark,

I don't know about Zeus, but Odin is very real. 

all
Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2011 - 2:21PM #38
Markezuma
Posts: 289

Feb 8, 2011 -- 2:02PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:



Mark,

I don't know about Zeus, but Odin is very real. 

all



Thank you for your input. I've ocasionally discussed Zeus people who who were favorable to his existence but my interaction about Odin have primarily been through unreliable sources like fictional movies and fantasy literature. Never met him myself but I've also never seen an angel and I believe in them.

"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2011 - 2:45PM #39
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Feb 8, 2011 -- 2:21PM, Markezuma wrote:

Feb 8, 2011 -- 2:02PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:



Mark,

I don't know about Zeus, but Odin is very real. 

all



Thank you for your input. I've ocasionally discussed Zeus people who who were favorable to his existence but my interaction about Odin have primarily been through unreliable sources like fictional movies and fantasy literature. Never met him myself but I've also never seen an angel and I believe in them.




I don't expect you to believe in him, but just so you know, he is one of my deities. 

all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 09, 2011 - 2:32AM #40
Jm8
Posts: 784
Mark,

> I think there is a question of credibility in the links you posted

I'm awaiting feedback to the linked sources. So far only one member gave it, in the form of a refusal to read them.

> it would help to make it more clear if you gave specific examples of descriptions of divine identity and why they are moving to you.

There're too many descriptions. One can start with Rig Veda samhita 1.22.20: "The princes evermore behold / that loftiest place where ViSNu is / Laid as it were an eye in heaven {Sun}. (trans. Griffith)

'princes': sUrayaH, i.e. devas, gods. They're real but temporary, like this material world.

> I'm not convinced that all names point to one God, but that is in part because I find it hard to associate figures like Zeus and Odin (who I do not believe were ever real) with Jehovah (which is at least one designation of a real entity).

"He is the Only One who bears the names of all gods" (Rig Veda samhita 10.82.3). Ditto VedAnta sUtra 1.4.28.

> If there are gods then yes they would certainly be aware of each other and would probably even interact at least occasionally.

There're many such interactions described in Vedic, Abrahamic, Buddhist and other texts.

E.g. Deuteronomy 32:43 ESV, CEV (using Dead Sea Scrolls as source text, NLT using Septuagint says 'angels', many other translations avoid them altogether).

> The notion that we all worship one God directly or indirectly is one with which I have trouble.

It's stated in BhagavadgItA 7.20-23, 9.19-25.



all,

I'm missing any facts and arguments in what you wrote.


Hope this helps. Hare Krsna
Your servant, bh. Jan

www.vrindavan-dham.com
www.veda.harekrsna.cz
www.krishna.com

dvaitaM bandhAya mokSAt prAk prApte bodhe manISayA
bhaktyarthaM kalpitam dvaitaM advaitAd api sundaram

"Duality is bondage before moksa and wisdom after realization. The duality accepted for the purpose of bhakti is sweeter than even non-duality." (from mangalacarana to Advaitasiddhi sara sangraha by Madhusudana Sarasvati, former advaitin)
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