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4 years ago  ::  Nov 18, 2010 - 8:08PM #21
gorm-sionnach
Posts: 1,663

Nov 18, 2010 -- 6:27PM, rdsetc wrote:


Has "UPG" been identified on this thread?  I am not familiar with this, whatever it is.


 


 


 




Unverifed Personal Gnosis.

Truth in our hearts, Strength in our arms, Fulfillment in our tongues.
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 18, 2010 - 11:20PM #22
rdsetc
Posts: 7

Well, there you have me.   I have no idea what you are attempting to say.  This will be my final post on this thread.


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 19, 2010 - 7:43AM #23
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Nov 18, 2010 -- 11:20PM, rdsetc wrote:


Well, there you have me.   I have no idea what you are attempting to say.  This will be my final post on this thread.


 


 





 


I don't why you are announcing that, but if you are looking for clarification, UPG means the life experiences we have that make us believe the way we do. Empirical evidence doesn't fall under UPG.   Religious belief tends to, because you are relying on the evidence your own eyes have presented to you, or presented to someone you trust, rather than something that can be proven with scientific testing or photographic evidence. There is nothing, beyond what we find it texts written by others long, long, ago that will tell us anything about Heaven, for example.  So when people argue about what Heaven is, or even if it exists at all, well, there is no evidence one way or another. It all boils down to UPG.


Reincarnation falls into the same category.

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 19, 2010 - 8:58AM #24
rdsetc
Posts: 7

OK-


In many of his readings, Edgar Cayce told people who they were in past lifetimes.  He gave their names and in some cases directed them to the grave of the former sojourner.  One of them, that I read about traveled to Germany (for the first time in his life) and beheld the marked grave in a small town in Germany.  Cayce, of course, also had never left the United States in his lifetime.   Are you suggesting that this is merely the personal cognition of Edgar Cayce, the experiencer, his lifelong secretary, Gladys Davis, who took everything down in shorthand, documenting the readings (as she had many thousands throughout her life) mine for reading about it and now yours and those who are reading these posts?  


In cases uncovered in India, Dr. Ian Stevenson located children in their early stages of being able to speak name their former homes, family relatives and in some cases items hidden about the house in which they lived.  Was this merely the "personal cognition" of the famous researcher, the children, their familites who were in evidence and those who documented the cases at the Division of Perceptual Studies at the School of Medicine of the University of Virginia and their students, their friends and families who listen to the students?  Is it the personal cognition of those who study these cases? 


Now describe for me in clear, conversational English, so that I might understand, the significance of what you are bringing to this thread?   In short, what is your point? 


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 19, 2010 - 9:07AM #25
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Nov 19, 2010 -- 8:58AM, rdsetc wrote:


OK-


In many of his readings, Edgar Cayce told people who they were in past lifetimes.  He gave their names and in some cases directed them to the grave of the former sojourner.  One of them, that I read about traveled to Germany (for the first time in his life) and beheld the marked grave in a small town in Germany.  Cayce, of course, also had never left the United States in his lifetime.   Are you suggesting that this is merely the personal cognition of Edgar Cayce, the experiencer, his lifelong secretary, Gladys Davis, who took everything down in shorthand, documenting the readings (as she had many thousands throughout her life) mine for reading about it and now yours and those who are reading these posts?  


In cases uncovered in India, Dr. Ian Stevenson located children in their early stages of being able to speak name their former homes, family relatives and in some cases items hidden about the house in which they lived.  Was this merely the "personal cognition" of the famous researcher, the children, their familites who were in evidence and those who documented the cases at the Division of Perceptual Studies at the School of Medicine of the University of Virginia and their students, their friends and families who listen to the students?  Is it the personal cognition of those who study these cases? 


Now describe for me in clear, conversational English, so that I might understand, the significance of what you are bringing to this thread?   In short, what is your point? 


 


 





I am suggesting that you are trusting in experiences of Edgar Cayce and Dr. Ian Stevenson to form your beliefs on Reincarnation.  That doesn't mean its a bad thing; it's just a thing.


I am not saying that anything about UPG is good or bad; it just is.  What I am saying is your UPG is your UPG and my UPG is mine, and we should trust in our own to form our beliefs.  I am pleased that you believe in reincarnation.  It is good that you have formed confident beliefs to work your life around. The jury is still out for me.


 


What I am saying that is a fact is that there is no empirical evidence for reincarnation.  Science has not accepted it as even a hypothesis, let alone a theory. It is not testable.  It leaves no evidence that would be accepted by panel or court.  So to make claims that reincarnation is an obvious truth beyond UPG is a gross exaggeration of the facts.

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 19, 2010 - 12:41PM #26
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

SG is correct.  There is no provable facts that reincarnation is real or truth. And before anyone jumps on me. I am a believer.


I have always entertained the idea of reincarnation, but in the last few years I have been having interesting visions, that to me prove reincarnation is true. But that is only proof for me, and is meaningless to anyone else.


If you wish to discuss your experiences or even why you think it is real that is fine, but one can not state unverifiable things as fact.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2010 - 7:05AM #27
Jm8
Posts: 784

Somehow this thread got OT.


To reply, yes, in Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition reincarnation is accepted but it's not absolutely required to consider since one can reach perfection in one life without bothering about previous or future ones. This is actually the recommended approach.


If Cayce's claims could be verified by going to the place and seeing the tombstone with specific name he mentioned, then it's a testimony acceptable in a court that he had paranormal abilities.


Stevenson's research suggests that the children remembering previous lives (in verified cases) had paranormal perceptions.


There are various alternative hypotheses (aside reincarnation) trying to explain this: linking up to akasha/morphic field (dr. Sheldrake), false memories by demoniac interventions (fundamental Christians), etc. However, reincarnation seems to be the most natural explanation.


The method used by Tibetan lamas searching for a reincarnated lama is one example of verification.


> What I am saying that is a fact is that there is no empirical evidence for reincarnation.  Science has not accepted it as even a hypothesis, let alone a theory. It is not testable.  It leaves no evidence that would be accepted by panel or court.


Modern science (aside its paradigm defense issue and resultant autocensorship) is too gross to observe subtle matter. Even small particles of gross matter aren't easily observed. Subatomic particles are something which can be accepted only on faith (in the testimony of scientists) by most people who aren't members of elite scientific teams with access to observation devices (in Sanskrit 'pratyaksha') nor can understand the complex mathematical proofs (anumana).


This is similar to the perception of subtle matter. It's available only to some. Before studying reincarnation it'd be needed to study OBE and NDE. Some results are already there:


www.springerlink.com/content/p34544k611r...


PS: Interesting photos: reincarnation2002.com/photos.htm


Hope this helps. Hare Krsna
Your servant, bh. Jan


www.vrindavan-dham.com
www.veda.harekrsna.cz


dvaitaM bandhAya mokSAt prAk prApte bodhe manISayA
bhaktyarthaM kalpitam dvaitaM advaitAd api sundaram


"Duality is bondage before moksa and wisdom after realization. The duality accepted for the purpose of bhakti is sweeter than even non-duality." (from mangalacarana to Advaitasiddhi sara sangraha by Madhusudana Sarasvati, former advaitin)

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 22, 2010 - 7:45PM #28
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,710

Nov 18, 2010 -- 5:01PM, rdsetc wrote:


“Reincarnation”


 1.   We are not energy.   Energy is  that which we use to create realities (Frames of reference) in order to communicate with each individuated self and accomplish ascendance.


2.    Our bodies are energy (like everything else within our ken).  We are not our bodies.   If so, as Deepak Chopra has said numerous times, “Which body are we?  Are we the 10lb baby body?  Are we the one that stood three feet tall?  Are we the dying 90 year old?”  We take on many measurably different bodies within one sojourn --- as we do in our infinite lives.


3.    Change is the only constant in the Universes…


4.  This “life” (sojourn) is not about us.  It is about what we can bring to the table.  It is about what contribution we can make to the reality in the ephemeral visit.  If we focus on the fleeting, brief identity, we have missed the bus entirely.



What you described in point 2 actually explains reincarnation as a natural part of nature. It is said that our bodies go through a cell rejuvenation every 7 years. We are changing bodies every 7 years.

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 22, 2010 - 8:12PM #29
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,710

Nov 15, 2010 -- 4:34PM, rdsetc wrote:


Like all play in maya reincarnation is simply part of the game.  Time and space are illusory thus birth and death are like all else, perceptual.  Reincarnation or any other part of existence is free of religiosity but if religionists want to attach it to some religion they are of course free to do so.  It's all in the game, what we do as we continue on to infinity in the play.



The play of maya also consist of us being conditioned by it. Being conditioned by it implies that this is a integrated reality. That would mean we have no real eternal connection to the body but being absorbed in it is evidence of the conditioning power of nature. We have to take a material body to be conditioned and we have to continually take on bodies as long as we stay conditioned by maya.

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 22, 2010 - 9:25PM #30
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,710

Nov 21, 2010 -- 7:05AM, Jm8 wrote:


Somehow this thread got OT.


To reply, yes, in Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition reincarnation is accepted but it's not absolutely required to consider since one can reach perfection in one life without bothering about previous or future ones. This is actually the recommended approach.


If Cayce's claims could be verified by going to the place and seeing the tombstone with specific name he mentioned, then it's a testimony acceptable in a court that he had paranormal abilities.


Stevenson's research suggests that the children remembering previous lives (in verified cases) had paranormal perceptions.


There are various alternative hypotheses (aside reincarnation) trying to explain this: linking up to akasha/morphic field (dr. Sheldrake), false memories by demoniac interventions (fundamental Christians), etc. However, reincarnation seems to be the most natural explanation.


The method used by Tibetan lamas searching for a reincarnated lama is one example of verification.


> What I am saying that is a fact is that there is no empirical evidence for reincarnation.  Science has not accepted it as even a hypothesis, let alone a theory. It is not testable.  It leaves no evidence that would be accepted by panel or court.


Modern science (aside its paradigm defense issue and resultant autocensorship) is too gross to observe subtle matter. Even small particles of gross matter aren't easily observed. Subatomic particles are something which can be accepted only on faith (in the testimony of scientists) by most people who aren't members of elite scientific teams with access to observation devices (in Sanskrit 'pratyaksha') nor can understand the complex mathematical proofs (anumana).


This is similar to the perception of subtle matter. It's available only to some. Before studying reincarnation it'd be needed to study OBE and NDE. Some results are already there:


www.springerlink.com/content/p34544k611r...


PS: Interesting photos: reincarnation2002.com/photos.htm


Hope this helps. Hare Krsna
Your servant, bh. Jan


www.vrindavan-dham.com
www.veda.harekrsna.cz


dvaitaM bandhAya mokSAt prAk prApte bodhe manISayA
bhaktyarthaM kalpitam dvaitaM advaitAd api sundaram


"Duality is bondage before moksa and wisdom after realization. The duality accepted for the purpose of bhakti is sweeter than even non-duality." (from mangalacarana to Advaitasiddhi sara sangraha by Madhusudana Sarasvati, former advaitin)



Great site that " reincarnation202.com " I clicked on the Judea and Christianity thread and this quote stood out for me, " In the true sense, sin is not something that needs to be forgiven but an existing immaturity or uncorrected aspect of our character." That's deep, it implies to me that our present state will be our future state and a past state determined our present state. Our character is a developing thing.

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