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Switch to Forum Live View Moderate Muslims Oppose Ground Zero Mosque
4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2010 - 7:38PM #561
Erey
Posts: 17,342

Sep 10, 2010 -- 4:03PM, Ceren wrote:


Sep 10, 2010 -- 3:50PM, Erey wrote:


Well unfortunately this mosque has been touted as a great and glorious symbol of moderate Islam and Rauf as a leader in moderate Islam. This was touted by the idiotic american leadership and this egomaniac Rauf himself.  This is another example in a long line of American leadership being stupidly naive about Islamic reformers.    So now we have a unavoidable disapointment because Rauf is an imposter - not just a guy. 



As far as I know, Rauf has never claimed to be a leader of moderate Islam or a leader of anything. He's just a community activist who has worked hard for many years in interfaith dialogue. In addition, I don't think that he or the Cordoba initiative ever touted the building as a glorious symbol of anything. Please check Rauf's op-ed and the Cordoba Initiative website.


Rauf is not an impostor of any kind. He has never protrayed himself as anything more than he is, an Imam who works in interfaith dialogue and Muslim world relations.


Sep 10, 2010 -- 3:50PM, Erey wrote:

Muslims can be busy being regular people but I think someone needs to step up to the plate when we have a weird little guy in Florida being addressed by several national leaders and the FBI showing up literaly at his door to silence him.  When we are told that neighboorly sensitivities can't be considered - so sorry but if we do that people will probably be killed by jihadists.  Shoot is there someone who can be a hero?  Is that possible?  Or do we just need more demands of tolerance from main stream americans?



Mmm... if you want to step up to the plate and go speak to Afghanis about not getting upset if some Qurans are burnt in Florida, then please go ahead.


There's this notion that somehow we Muslims are responsible for anything that involves Muslims anywhere around the world. So we have to somehow "step up" and be knowledgeable in foreign policy and political science and organize talks and demos?!? 


Las time I checked we don't require that from Chinese Americans. We don't tell them to go and protest because of the Chinese dictatorship. We don't tell Koreans to go and "step up" when N. Korea goes and jails Americans. 


I don't know when people are finally going to get the message and realize that just because I'm Muslim, it doesn't mean  I have anything in common with a guy who lives thousands miles away from me, whose theology and jurisprudence has very litte in common with mine, and who really doesn't give a damn about my opinion!





Well maybe you are unaware but Rauf is a paid diplomat by the state services - has been for years in order to "spread understanding of the US in the muslim world.  He is paid ALOT of money by my government to be that bridge.    And he says he wanted to build this particular Cordoba house as a bridge - I don't think he used the term beacon of understanding  but something like that and also healing... healing between Islam and the west.    Pretty lofty goals dontcha think?    I believe he is an imposter because he has one face for the US and has another face for muslims overseas - that kind of stuff really irks me. 


The US really wants to promote muslim reformers but they always get it wrong and I think it is because the US is naive. 


Why should I ask the bloodthirsty Afghanis anything?  What they do they do in the name of Islam.  Don't you think that should be a concern to the muslim world?


And Chinese Americans don't blow up Fort Hood or try to destroy synagogs in NY state and they don't try to blow up times square - all those things happened in the last year or so.  We are not afraid of Chinese people American-chinese or just plain old chinese of going jihad on us.    If some nut in Florida wanted to burn a million of Mao's little red books it probably would not make the news.  If it did make the news there would be ZERO fear of murderous jihad.   So it is not crazy to think there is a big fat problem with the muslim world. 


I am not saying you specificaly but I find it very disheartning that you guys get to play  poor persecuted victims when some nut in Florida wants to burn a bunch of Korans.  We are so afraid of muslim violence we pulled out the big guns - Clinton, the Pope, S of State, other christian leaders - when that did not work we sent the FBI to the guys house! 


Whereas muslims in Afghanistan chant death to christians.  In 2007 Islamic militants tore up a christian church, destroyed bibles, destroyed crosses, any religios objects, harrassed the chrisitian woman and the muslim world said NOTHING!  I would really like for once someone from Islamic leadership to say we publicly denounce you and where we can find your funding we will cut you off.  And here is a gesture of from the Islamic community to see about making this right.


Seeing as how we say american sensitivities don't matter because muslims will kill you if you don't build the mosque and how that kook in Florida was totally silenced by our leadership.  don't you think it is time for someone in the Islamic world to say there is no excuse! Koran buring is not worth killing people for, that is idolatry to place such importance on a Koran instead of what God would want you to do.  Why is this too much to hope for?


Those people who live thousands of miles away might not care about your opinion but surely there is someone who they would listen to.

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2010 - 7:42PM #562
Erey
Posts: 17,342

Sep 10, 2010 -- 4:22PM, bb-15 wrote:


Sep 10, 2010 -- 3:50PM, Erey wrote:


 


Or do we just need more demands of tolerance from main stream americans?


The Constitution, US law and the ethical teachings of moderate/liberal versions of religion ask us to be tolerant and respectful of the rights of law-abiding Americans regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. This is not a new idea considering there is even a national holiday to someone who dedicated his life to promoting tolerance.


So, that is the mainstream expectation in America even when most Americans disagree with it.


BB ;-)


 


I know what the US teaches.  What does Islam teach?  What image does Islam make?  Why should Americans embrace this image when it is an intolerant and insensitive image?  Just because you are a different religion.


 





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4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2010 - 7:47PM #563
bb-15
Posts: 242

Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:04PM, Ibn wrote:


I do not live in USA but I can't understand what's happening in USA. I wantched the latest news on Sky News and a guy called Pastor Paul came on and said something like, is it legally right to have a mosque built at Ground Zero? Yes. Is it right thing to do to build it at Ground Zero? No.


My question is:


How can someone have a legal right to do something but it is not the right thing to do?


Or


How can it be not the right thing to do even though one has the legal right to do it?


Does it not show that either something is wrong in the law of the land that something could be wrong thing to do but still legally allowed?


If not, why is it not the right thing to when it is legal?


Everyone can have a personal morality which is different from the law. This topic is about religion. Some people believe that others having a certain religious belief is wrong even if it is not against the law.


Pastor Terry Jones believes that "Islam is of the Devil". So, obviously he would believe that Islam is wrong and that Muslims practicing Islam would be wrong. And so, he would also believe that the building of any Mosque in America would be wrong.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones_%28pas...


But Pastor Jones does recognize the building a Mosque in the United States is legal. So, that in my opinion explains his statement.


BB ;-)

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2010 - 8:15PM #564
Ceren
Posts: 1,430

Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Erey wrote:


Well maybe you are unaware but Rauf is a paid diplomat by the state services - has been for years in order to "spread understanding of the US in the muslim world.  He is paid ALOT of money by my government to be that bridge.    And he says he wanted to build this particular Cordoba house as a bridge - I don't think he used the term beacon of understanding  but something like that and also healing... healing between Islam and the west.    Pretty lofty goals dontcha think?    I believe he is an imposter because he has one face for the US and has another face for muslims overseas - that kind of stuff really irks me. 



I am aware of what Imam Rauf does. I know him personally. He is not paid A LOT by the way, and he is not the only one paid by the state services. The fact that he is a government employee is just that, he's a government employee like millions out there. He's not the first or the last one to go on government delegations.


Yes, so he wants to bring healing and understanding... so what? I want to bring healing and understanding and I'm no one. I'm glad he can devote his life to that. I bring healing and understanding through medicine; each one has its own role in this world. 


And please... this "he has one face blah blah" is getting tiresome.


 


Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Erey wrote:


Why should I ask the bloodthirsty Afghanis anything?  What they do they do in the name of Islam.  Don't you think that should be a concern to the muslim world?



Huh? Do you not follow current affairs? They do what they do in the name of political power. In case you did not notice it's Muslims AGAINST Mulims in  Afghanistan as well, which is clearly prohibited in ISlam. And here you come and tell me that somehow this people are doing this in the name of ISlam? WTH?!?!?!


Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Erey wrote:

 And Chinese Americans don't blow up Fort Hood or try to destroy synagogs in NY state and they don't try to blow up times square - all those things happened in the last year or so.  We are not afraid of Chinese people American-chinese or just plain old chinese of going jihad on us.   



A LOT more people die every year due to gang related violence... and I mean people that are NOT involved in the gangs... just "wrong people in the wrong place".


So if you're REALLY concerned about your security... I suggest you look otherwise, because you have higher chances of being ran over by a drunk driver than being a victim of a terrorist attack.


Now as you know, for various reasons, the most violent gangs are composed of African Americans and Hispanics. Does this mean it is right to be afraid of African Americans and  Hispanics? Can I cross the street if I see an African American pass by?


 

Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Erey wrote:

 II am not saying you specificaly but I find it very disheartning that you guys get to play  poor persecuted victims when some nut in Florida wants to burn a bunch of Korans.  We are so afraid of muslim violence we pulled out the big guns - Clinton, the Pope, S of State, other christian leaders - when that did not work we sent the FBI to the guys house! 



PLEEEAAAASE STOP REFERRING TO EVERY MUSLIM WORLDWIDE AS "YOU GUYS" as if we are a single group!! JESUS!


There was no fear of domestic violence but people said it could increase attacks overseas. So please, please SEPARATE the issues. And you know, the best way of not being afraid of violence in those countries is to get the hell out of there.


No one played "victim", most Muslims here did not give a damn that someone so idiotic would burn books.  And what Afghanis Muslims think... WE DON'T HAVE A CLUE!


Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Erey wrote:

Those people who live thousands of miles away might not care about your opinion but surely there is someone who they would listen to.




Now tell me... when there were MASSIVE worldwide protests against the invasion in Iraq... did the US listen? When the  UN said "no" ... did the US listen?  What makes you think that any other country will listen to outsiders meddle in their affairs?




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4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2010 - 8:36PM #565
bb-15
Posts: 242

 


Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:42PM, Erey wrote:


I know what the US teaches.  What does Islam teach? What image does Islam make?  Why should Americans embrace this image when it is an intolerant and insensitive image?


Forgive me for going to basics on this topic. This is the only way I can explain it.


Islam and Judaism are religions which have laws in their scriptures. But there is a difference between following a religious law and the law of the United States. For instance there are laws in the Jewish Bible which are very harsh including. 


Leviticus 20:10


10If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his  neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.


Exodus 21:17


Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.



www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev...


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exo...


Here is Jesus repeating one of these laws.


Mark 7:10


10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'a]">[a] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'



www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mar...


An American enforcing these religious laws would break the law in the United States.


* So, the question is whether a person respects the Constitution and follows the law of the United States. The Muslims I know follow American laws.


Just because you are a different religion.


Every religion has the Golden Rule. Any religion including Islam can be moderate / progressive and preach peace.  There are  Muslim Americans  who I have met who preach peace.


BB ;-)

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2010 - 8:46PM #566
Erey
Posts: 17,342

Sep 10, 2010 -- 8:15PM, Ceren wrote:


Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Erey wrote:


Well maybe you are unaware but Rauf is a paid diplomat by the state services - has been for years in order to "spread understanding of the US in the muslim world.  He is paid ALOT of money by my government to be that bridge.    And he says he wanted to build this particular Cordoba house as a bridge - I don't think he used the term beacon of understanding  but something like that and also healing... healing between Islam and the west.    Pretty lofty goals dontcha think?    I believe he is an imposter because he has one face for the US and has another face for muslims overseas - that kind of stuff really irks me. 



I am aware of what Imam Rauf does. I know him personally. He is not paid A LOT by the way, and he is not the only one paid by the state services. The fact that he is a government employee is just that, he's a government employee like millions out there. He's not the first or the last one to go on government delegations.


Yes, so he wants to bring healing and understanding... so what? I want to bring healing and understanding and I'm no one. I'm glad he can devote his life to that. I bring healing and understanding through medicine; each one has its own role in this world. 


And please... this "he has one face blah blah" is getting tiresome.


 


Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Erey wrote:


Why should I ask the bloodthirsty Afghanis anything?  What they do they do in the name of Islam.  Don't you think that should be a concern to the muslim world?



Huh? Do you not follow current affairs? They do what they do in the name of political power. In case you did not notice it's Muslims AGAINST Mulims in  Afghanistan as well, which is clearly prohibited in ISlam. And here you come and tell me that somehow this people are doing this in the name of ISlam? WTH?!?!?!


Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Erey wrote:

 And Chinese Americans don't blow up Fort Hood or try to destroy synagogs in NY state and they don't try to blow up times square - all those things happened in the last year or so.  We are not afraid of Chinese people American-chinese or just plain old chinese of going jihad on us.   



A LOT more people die every year due to gang related violence... and I mean people that are NOT involved in the gangs... just "wrong people in the wrong place".


So if you're REALLY concerned about your security... I suggest you look otherwise, because you have higher chances of being ran over by a drunk driver than being a victim of a terrorist attack.


Now as you know, for various reasons, the most violent gangs are composed of African Americans and Hispanics. Does this mean it is right to be afraid of African Americans and  Hispanics? Can I cross the street if I see an African American pass by?


 

Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Erey wrote:

 II am not saying you specificaly but I find it very disheartning that you guys get to play  poor persecuted victims when some nut in Florida wants to burn a bunch of Korans.  We are so afraid of muslim violence we pulled out the big guns - Clinton, the Pope, S of State, other christian leaders - when that did not work we sent the FBI to the guys house! 



PLEEEAAAASE STOP REFERRING TO EVERY MUSLIM WORLDWIDE AS "YOU GUYS" as if we are a single group!! JESUS!


There was no fear of domestic violence but people said it could increase attacks overseas. So please, please SEPARATE the issues. And you know, the best way of not being afraid of violence in those countries is to get the hell out of there.


No one played "victim", most Muslims here did not give a damn that someone so idiotic would burn books.  And what Afghanis Muslims think... WE DON'T HAVE A CLUE!


Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:38PM, Erey wrote:

Those people who live thousands of miles away might not care about your opinion but surely there is someone who they would listen to.




Now tell me... when there were MASSIVE worldwide protests against the invasion in Iraq... did the US listen? When the  UN said "no" ... did the US listen?  What makes you think that any other country will listen to outsiders meddle in their affairs?







Ceren, this Rauf got paid more than 100K for this most recent gulf tour - alone.  Not to mention the many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars we have given this guy over the last several years.  I am sorry but that is "not like any other government worker".   He is very highly paid.  And I find him very duplicitous.


I find it a real shame that evidentaly he is the best our state department can find.  Rauf of the pro-Hamas and the sorry about your feelings but gotta build here because of Jihad and that the US is responsible for Saddam starving all the children under food for oil.  And his wife screamig about how Islamaphobic the US is - hate of muslims while she is also paid major bucks by our US state department.


But I don't even care about Rauf as much except that it is fine and dandy with our leadership to allow this guy to stay on tax payer dime while he placates our bigoted sensitivities - that he cares about so much. 


Everyone says they do jihad in the name of Islam and for Islam.  That should be a concern I would think to muslim leaders. I realize you are not a muslim leader but damn there should be somebody out there who would find this a worthy cause. 


If you are going to compare muslims to gangs then I dont' get what all this caterwalling about tolerance and bigotry is all about.  I think most of us think it is OK to be biased against gangs.  And we call them what they are - gangs.  Not these flowery euphamisms about being religions of peace. 


I am just so bored with every concern that involves a muslim being reduced to name calling about bigotry.  There is a huge problem with the muslim world that you don't quite find duplicated with other religions.  It is time to stop being afraid of calling it what it is anrd start confronting the  problem.    As it is all we are doing is trampling on our own secular rights which is not exactly building a bridge.

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2010 - 8:49PM #567
Erey
Posts: 17,342

Sep 10, 2010 -- 8:36PM, bb-15 wrote:


 


Sep 10, 2010 -- 7:42PM, Erey wrote:


I know what the US teaches.  What does Islam teach? What image does Islam make?  Why should Americans embrace this image when it is an intolerant and insensitive image?


Forgive me for going to basics on this topic. This is the only way I can explain it.


Islam and Judaism are religions which have laws in their scriptures. But there is a difference between following a religious law and the law of the United States. For instance there are laws in the Jewish Bible which are very harsh including. 


Leviticus 20:10


10If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.


Exodus 21:17


Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.



www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev...


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exo...


Here is Jesus repeating one of these laws.


Mark 7:10


10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'a]">[a] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'



www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mar...


An American following these religious laws would break the law in the United States.


* So, the question is whether a person respects the Constitution and follows the law of the United States. The Muslims I know follow American laws.


Just because you are a different religion.


Every religion has the Golden Rule. Any religion including Islam can be moderate / progressive and preach peace.  There are  Muslim Americans who I have met who preach peace.


BB ;-)




Look I am aware that all religoins have difficult passages.  But you would be hard pressed to find a jew putting people to death. I am not even sure what your purpose was in posting that. 
yes there are peacefull muslims in the world.  Unfortunately none of them seem to have either real authority or if they have authority they don't seem to have the moral compass to try and address some of the things going on in the muslim world.


That is too bad.

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2010 - 9:08PM #568
bb-15
Posts: 242

Sep 10, 2010 -- 8:46PM, Erey wrote:


I am just so bored with every concern that involves a muslim being reduced to name calling about bigotry.


I had to jump on this one. If the Community Center could be built, then there wouldn't be a problem with bigotry would there. 

There is a huge problem with the muslim world that you don't quite find duplicated with other religions.


The Community Center does not = the Muslim world.

It is time to stop being afraid of calling it what it is anrd start confronting the  problem.


The "problem" has to do with Al Qaeda and other groups wanting to kill Americans. The US is dealing with that problem. The Community Center has little to do with that.

  As it is all we are doing is trampling on our own secular rights which is not exactly building a bridge.


"trampling on our own secular rights"? The right to be intolerant? I guess so. All my life I've heard people say about certain minorities that they don't want them living in certain communities, and working in certain jobs.


This attitude is not new. There has always between a struggle between tolerance and intolerance in America.


BB ;-)

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2010 - 9:19PM #569
bb-15
Posts: 242

Sep 10, 2010 -- 8:49PM, Erey wrote:


Look I am aware that all religoins have difficult passages.  But you would be hard pressed to find a jew putting people to death. I am not even sure what your purpose was in posting that. 
yes there are peacefull muslims in the world.  Unfortunately none of them seem to have either real authority or if they have authority they don't seem to have the moral compass to try and address some of the things going on in the muslim world.


That is too bad.


Yes, it's too bad. But as I wrote in my other post, the Community Center does not = the Muslim world. It is not the job of the organizers of the Community Center to change the Muslim world. So, the question is do the organizers of the Community Center follow the laws of the United States? As far as I know they do.


So, these law abiding and as far as I know peaceful Muslims own some land in Manhattan and have approved permits. And they want to build a house of worship. That's it. It's a small issue. This isn't about changing the world. It's just about a small group of Americans wanting to lawfully do something on their own property.


BB ;-)

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2010 - 9:32PM #570
Ceren
Posts: 1,430

Sep 10, 2010 -- 8:46PM, Erey wrote:


If you are going to compare muslims to gangs then I dont' get what all this caterwalling about tolerance and bigotry is all about.  I think most of us think it is OK to be biased against gangs.  And we call them what they are - gangs.  Not these flowery euphamisms about being religions of peace. 



EXACTLY, you once again just put us all in the same bag.


Yes, the Muslims who advocate violence for a Quran burning in Florida (if there were such Muslims) are nothing but thugs and gangsters. I have no problem calling them that.


However, the same way that you would not call every African American and every Hispanic a gangster and you would not be afraid of them, then I would expect you not to call every single Muslim a gangster. It's as easy as that.


Sep 10, 2010 -- 8:46PM, Erey wrote:

I am just so bored with every concern that involves a muslim being reduced to name calling about bigotry.  There is a huge problem with the muslim world that you don't quite find duplicated with other religions.  It is time to stop being afraid of calling it what it is anrd start confronting the  problem.    As it is all we are doing is trampling on our own secular rights which is not exactly building a bridge.



Again, trying to englobe everything around the "Muslim world" as if it's one monolyth it's just intelectual laziness.


I hope you also realize that there's a difference between association and causation.


"Muslim countries" are not the only ones that systematically violate human rights and no Muslim country was really ever a threat to the US, not even Iraq. If the US chooses to be in Iraq and Afghanistan so that people in the war business make money, then so be it. But they need to realize that they're going to piss a lot of people off and that you can't rule out that some crazy person will randomly try to blow him/herself up.  Having said that, we all have better chances of dying as a result of a car accident than a terrorist attack. So I'd say you stay away from busy streets.




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