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Switch to Forum Live View End Time Prophecies... Why?
3 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2010 - 8:47PM #1
Innerpoint
Posts: 1,064

Nearly every major religion has some type of apocalyptic 'ending/beginning' or just a straight endtime prophecy.  I've often wondered why?  In my faith, the belief in an 'ending' isn't stressed - other than that of the individual.  And, even the individual ending is hedged with the promise of continuation.  Are we a fatalistic species?

Scientifically, we can tell within a specified number of years that our sun is going to give up... but that doesn't explain the myths and stories that have shown in our various faith systems.

Anyone want to take a shot at discussing, and trying to explain, the seeming death-wish that most religions have?

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2010 - 11:30PM #2
Xristocharis
Posts: 5,052

In traditional Christianity the end (or more properly, the eschaton) isn't a destruction of the cosmos, but its restoration and renewel. We see history and the universe as teleological, there is a telos, a goal or a purpose toward which all things are heading, and that telos is Jesus Christ.


The universe, created through God's Word (Jesus) is purposed and destined to be consummated in Him. St. Paul in his epistle to the Colossians says, "By Him [Jesus] and for Him were all things made;" there is a distinct purpose found in Jesus toward which all things are heading. Paul, in his epistle to the Romans speaks of the "groaning" of all creation, longing and looking forward to its renewal,


"...that creation itself would be set free from bondage to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of God's children."


That is, even as Christians hope for the resurrection of the dead at the Parousia, so even all of creation will partake in that moment when "corruption shall put on incorruption" and "mortality will put on immortality".


In the Acts of the Apostles, in his sermon, St. Peter speaks of the time of Christ's Parousia as an Apokatastasis Panton, a restoration of all things (the NAB translates this as "the time of universal restoration").


Historically Christianity does not see the eternal purpose of humankind as living in a spiritual existence "in heaven", but as fully bodied, resurrected human persons sharing in the eternal life of God, being like the Resurrected Christ in His transfigured glory. And that Creation is not to be obliterated, but restored, renewed. The beginnings of the universe's restoration and renewel begins in Jesus who rose from the dead and then in the saints who are sharers in the resurrection of Jesus--first through the life of the Spirit poured out on Pentecost and finally at the Parousia when the dead will rise; and in this the whole created order is restored, renewed. This is the Age to Come which we see promised not only in the New Testament, but also by the ancient Hebrew Prophets who spoke of a time when there would no longer be war or violence; the image showing us a time when a small child can play near a viper's den without fear, where wolf and lamb lay together in peace. Death is no more, nor fear or pain or anguish.


In our Creed we read, "we look for the resurrection of the dead ... and everlasting life in the Age to Come." This is the Christian hope, into which we were baptized and given the Holy Spirit. This hope for redemption, renewel and restoration of all things wholly consumes the Christian life. Proclaiming God's kingdom right now in feeding the hungry, taking care of the poor, in decrying the injustices of the rich and powerful all have to do with the conviction that the present state of affairs are temporal and have no legitimate meaning. This understanding of the temporality of glory and power, arguably, is found even in churches which have historically been aligned to the state. For example, historically when the Pope entered the church he removed the papal tiara (a symbol of his role as earthly ruler of the papal states) because in the Church that power is fundamentally meaningless.


In the 4th century, St. Ambrose of Milan barred Theodosius from entering his church after the massacre at Thessalonica, and the emperor sat in ashes and sackcloth in repentance before finally being able to receive the Eucharist again. Kings and emperors have no authority in the Church, because the Church represents a different kingdom, God's kingdom.


I mention this because it's intimately linked to the Christian conviction that the present state of things is "falling away", violence, death, war, murder, our inhumanity to man, etc are all part of the old order of things which in the wake of the Crucified and Risen Jesus has lost all power and authority of any significant meaning. The Church, in proclaiming God's kingdom, is to reach out to the powerless because in God's kingdom "the least is greatest" and "the greatest among you will be your servant", and in the Age to Come all the wealth and glory of kings and potentates will have amounted to nothing. So Jesus says, "Blessed are the poor" and "Blessed are the hungry" and "Blessed are the meek" and "Blessed are the peacemakers"--but "Woe to the rich" and "Woe to the satisfied".


Having our "reward (or treasure) in heaven" has nothing to do with some ethereal, spiritual "crown" but about understanding that what is of real value are those things often considered of least value here. Grace, kindness, mercy, forgiveness, love, meekness, servanthood, etc. This is what God values, and is what will matter in eternity. We treasure these things now because in the Age to Come these are what are valuable and meaningful.


And I'm ranting, I apologize. But this encompasses a number of topics about which I find fascinating and am passionate about. Hopefully it wasn't too unintelligible.


-Jon

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Hélder Câmara
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2010 - 11:52PM #3
Innerpoint
Posts: 1,064

No sir... not too incomprehensible at all.  And the ramblings explain your views and expectations.  I did make note of 'beginnings' in my first post... and in that, I was referring to at least one Christian faith and a few Pagan ones.  While we always hear about 'endtime prophecies' and the 'end of the world', I realize that some see this as a new beginning, not necessarily an ending.

The Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind... if I'm not mistaken, their concept is something along the lines of this:  we're living in (while they don't call it this, I'm going to use it for my own clarity) purgatory and the grave is hell.  Those who are not reborn, or called, will stay in the grave - and they see ever-lasting death as hell.  Those who are called up will find a new paradise - here on earth.  I'm probably making that too simplistic and I'm sure there's probably more that goes along with it but, at this point, that is my understanding.

In Wicca, there is balance.  Everything that begins must end.  Everything that lives must, one day, die.  The reciprocal of those two concepts is also true, to us.   Depending on the gods that are honoured in whichever pantheon the individual Wiccan uses, or is called to, will denote the basic view of an 'end'.  The religion, itself, does not teach anything about final endings - it instead tends to teach about perpetuosity; multiple endings to bring about new beginnings.

Rant away to your hearts content.  If this topic is something that you'd like to espouse more of your views on, go right ahead.  I'm definitely interested.  

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2010 - 10:13AM #4
Marysara722
Posts: 2,548


In Judaism --- It's very, very simple.


The importance of our life, which is the only one we know and only one we know we have for the simple fact that we just don't know anything more then what we presently have thus know, and what we can't possible even begin know is really unknown to us to even begin to speculate.
[Sorry if I sounded like Donald Rumsfeld with all my "known knows & unknown knows :)]
But IT IS THIS life where the "importance of our life" is placed on.


Should we worry about doing good now in this life because by doing so it will give you the best seat in the house later on in "the next life"? --Or do you just do good because it's needed for whatever reason [feeding hungry children now for instance] in the here & now?
For it's the child and the child's life today that matters, and not your comfort level in another lifetime.


Do you give money to chartiy [to a children's hospital for cancer treatment, research & development to cure cancers] in this life because by doing so it will more you up in the ranks in the eyes of your deity? ---Or do you just give to charity out of the goodness of your heart because your funds will go towards treatments for those who can't afford the high costs of such treatments.  And your funds will go towards R&D that hopefully will find a cure for some or all cancers that plague us mammals now therefore help to eliminate some sufferings in this lifetime?
Just do good & right & hold to non-blind justice and you're on the right track. 


I could go one with other points/examples but when it comes to whatever "next" life we shall have or not have since it's pure speculation as to whether or not there is an "afterlife" at all.
Is that we don't let ourselves worry or concern ourselves with such a speculative notion because we figure the best thing to do in such a situation, is to let go, and let God worry about it.

It's just that easy.  Nothing complex about it and why should it be comlpex for us anyway? --Don't we have enough to deal with & worry about with what we are doing to each other & therefore ourselves?

Anyway, that's my share of my rant. ;)

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2010 - 11:44AM #5
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Good topic. 


I think that most religions contain a "prophecy" on the end because, well, everything ends.  Everything living will die, and the teachings on the end times are a way of understanding that, and applying it to theology, and theological constructs. 


 


But really, there is no point in offering a warning, a prophecy, about something that will happen regardless of what you do.  A warning, or prophecy exists to motivate a person to change what they can.  It is not about how it all ends, but how to live before you reach the end, and what will happen if you just follow the course that is laid out for you. 


 


all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2010 - 9:28PM #6
Tpaine
Posts: 8,189

Deism has neither a creation story nor an end time prophesy. While we believe in a Creator because we find it illogical that everything that exists happened by accident or random chance, we base what we know on observation and reason. When I die I will either have a continued existence or I won't. Since there's nothing I can do about it, I don't worry about it. Que sera sera.


Science tells me that as the Sun accumulates helium at it's core, it's luminosity will increase and the radiation reaching Earth will also increase raising the Earth's temperature. As the temperature rises the amount of inorganic CO2 will decrease to the level that plant life will be unable to survive causing oxygen levels to drop to levels that cannot support animal life. This should happen between 500 million to 900 million years from now so I doubt that we really have to worry about that either.

"When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am a friend of its happiness: When these things can be said, then may the country boast its constitution and its government." -- Thomas Paine: The Rights Of Man (1791)
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2010 - 11:49PM #7
Innerpoint
Posts: 1,064

Jul 21, 2010 -- 9:28PM, Tpaine wrote:

Deism has neither a creation story nor an end time prophesy. While we believe in a Creator because we find it illogical that everything that exists happened by accident or random chance, we base what we know on observation and reason. When I die I will either have a continued existence or I won't. Since there's nothing I can do about it, I don't worry about it. Que sera sera.

Science tells me that as the Sun accumulates helium at it's core, it's luminosity will increase and the radiation reaching Earth will also increase raising the Earth's temperature. As the temperature rises the amount of inorganic CO2 will decrease to the level that plant life will be unable to survive causing oxygen levels to drop to levels that cannot support animal life. This should happen between 500 million to 900 million years from now so I doubt that we really have to worry about that either.


That goes into a tad more detail about the science part that I had mentioned... but that still doesn't explain the seemingly inherent 'need' in most religions to have one.  At the moment, I tend to lean more towards Bear's thoughts - "Everything living will die, and the teachings on the end times are a way of understanding that, and applying it to theology, and theological constructs."

Good 'rant', Marysara... and it explains your views of why you do the things you do with other people in relation to an afterlife.  Forgive me for not remembering, or knowing (at the moment, I don't think I've ever known) but, in Judaism, is there an 'end time' prophecy?

I had a visit from my JW friends today and I brought up the question about their views regarding Revelations.  I think I got a little more than I bargained for but I was fairly close to the mark.  In their view, we're living in a world controlled by Satan and it's our choice as to whether or not we follow him.  So, while not being exactly purgatory, it's still a test to see how well we do.  The rest I guess I got right... or maybe he just took offense at the 'purgatory' part and decided to correct that. >shrugs<

Funny thing is, I based the premise of this thread on the concept of religious apocryphal prophecy but have since thought of several more that have nothing to do with religion.  Again, in my mind and to the best of my logic, I'm finding a cross between TPaine's and Bear's rationale.  Is that really all there is to any of it?  Knowing that everything, sooner or later, ceases?  If that's the case, why encase it in the mysterious guise of religious philosophy?

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2010 - 10:51AM #8
mainecaptain
Posts: 20,470

I went to a Pentecostal Church once, (I have been to others) but this one was different for me. The preacher said the devil is in the "very air we breath", direct quote.  That's when I knew I was not going back.


They actually believe this wonderful planet is ruled by a devil, and that their own god allows this. That they want to go to a god, that would allow such a thing, disturbs me on so many levels all by itself.


The old expression, "look for evil and you will find it, Or look for good and you will find it" There are an awful lot of people looking for evil.


People aside, this is an incredible world, one that should be cherished and enjoy to the best of our abilities. Life is far from perfect, but this is a lovely place and a blessing. It is not ruled by any Christian devil.


This type do not even see the good in their own lives, IMO

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2010 - 11:25AM #9
Innerpoint
Posts: 1,064

Jul 22, 2010 -- 10:51AM, mainecaptain wrote:

I went to a Pentecostal Church once, (I have been to others) but this one was different for me. The preacher said the devil is in the "very air we breath", direct quote.  That's when I knew I was not going back.


>nods< While I don't agree with that position, I've been trying to understand where it comes from and how they've incorporated it into their beliefs.  This is very similar to the JW's.  It was explained in this way... Jehovah made the world and all that is in it.  It started as a paradise for mankind - to be enjoyed and used for his benefit.  Satan, in the form of the serpent, usurped (thorough treachery) the will of man - enticing him to partake of the only thing that was denied him.  Jehovah, being such a benevolent deity (who put the temptation there in the first place knowing that it would be used - since he's all knowing) stepped aside and let Satan have dominion over the earth and humankind.  It's not that Jehovah has quit on the earth - it's still his creation and he will reclaim it - but that he's allowing people to be tempted to see how they will respond.  Following the fulfillment of the prophecies in Revelations, Jehovah will subdue Satan, taking back full control over the earth, and will call his faithful to once again live in a paradise - on this planet.  No heaven... just what we already have and, by the choice of all people, what could already be.

Jul 22, 2010 -- 10:51AM, mainecaptain wrote:

They actually believe this wonderful planet is ruled by a devil, and that their own god allows this. That they want to go to a god, that would allow such a thing, disturbs me on so many levels all by itself.


There are many things that this god allows that I find disturbing - but it's always passed off as the influence of Satan.  Wars, sickness, pestilence, famine... on and on... is always the hand of Satan, not Jehovah.

Jul 22, 2010 -- 10:51AM, mainecaptain wrote:

The old expression, "look for evil and you will find it, Or look for good and you will find it" There are an awful lot of people looking for evil.

People aside, this is an incredible world, one that should be cherished and enjoy to the best of our abilities. Life is far from perfect, but this is a lovely place and a blessing. It is not ruled by any Christian devil.

This type do not even see the good in their own lives, IMO


Again, I agree.  I see the 'evil' that is done in this world as being the choice of mankind, not an adversarial 'war' between two deities looking for 'points'.  This is a beautiful world and could very easily be converted into a paradise - given the will of the people to make it so.

Even this, though, does not negate the non-religious endtime prophecies/predictions.  As TPaine has said, there is a finite time that our world and everything it depends on for our current existence is going to fizzle out.  There's no denying that, but given the time period involved, why are there so many doomsday prophecies proposed within a graspable and palpable time period?

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2010 - 11:39AM #10
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Is that really all there is to any of it?  Knowing that everything,  sooner or later, ceases? 



 


Well, that is just part of it.  My own tradition has the story of "Ragnarok".  But it is not really about that all things must end, but focuses on how one meets that end.  In Asatru we are known for being pragmatic.  The end will come, no matter how we try to stave it off.  The desire for longer life alone, is a fool's errand. 


The importance becomes in not that it will end, that is unavoidable, but in how it will end, and how one chooses to meet that end. 



If that's the case, why encase it in the  mysterious guise of religious philosophy?



If one looks at the teachings in this light, they do become representative of the teachings in general.  In Ragnarok, the gods meet great enemies, and destroy them, although, in most cases they meet their own end as well. 


In Christianity, their god finally exerts the control that has been preached of.  Etc. 


 


The teachings can really be taken as a microcosm of the belief structure itself. 


 


all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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