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Switch to Forum Live View My Critique of Christians Evangelism
5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2009 - 9:19PM #11
gorm-sionnach
Posts: 1,663

Jun 14, 2009 -- 8:40PM, Godfather89 wrote:


Those who seek to know about the inner arm of christianity should join, I seek those who would be able to want to go deeper. I cant simply say "Join This or Burn in Hell" because it does not work like that. People who want to will, I cant speak for the inner circle of christian teaching only the entrance of the inner circle. So what type of christianity do you think I have? What type of person are you, in regards to your beliefs?  How can you simply call me "traditional" if I have barely begun explaining it?




An educated guess? The manner in which you describe your tradition of Christianity is rather in keeping with those other denominations which hold themselves to a level of exclusivity, in which you claim to have the "real Christianity". As such I do not believe Bill is in error in his reply.

Truth in our hearts, Strength in our arms, Fulfillment in our tongues.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2009 - 12:15AM #12
BillWitt
Posts: 2,622

Jun 14, 2009 -- 8:40PM, Godfather89 wrote:

 Those who seek to know about the inner arm of christianity should join,



Why would they want to join????  


What type of person are you, in regards to your beliefs?   


I'm not a Christian, and I have absolutely no desire to be a Christian, and certainly not a traditional Christian.     


How can you simply call me "traditional" if I have barely begun explaining it?  


I called you a traditional Christian, because you said you were a "traditional" Christian.  I'll take your word for it.  If you want to explain your beliefs, go right ahead.  I've ask you if you wanted to discuss your beliefs several times, but so far you haven't. 

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - -Isaac Asimov
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2009 - 8:44PM #13
Godfather89
Posts: 28

Jun 14, 2009 -- 9:19PM, gorm-sionnach wrote:


An educated guess? The manner in which you describe your tradition of Christianity is rather in keeping with those other denominations which hold themselves to a level of exclusivity, in which you claim to have the "real Christianity". As such I do not believe Bill is in error in his reply.




Exclusivity? No no no. You got me wrong, yes the risk and the perception of being seen as someone who is trying to sell "The Real Christianity" is there. The Christian Evangelism that is present in our Country (USA) today is not real, from scriptural position as well as even the historical position it is merely a symptom of our time and society, the idea of "get saved quick" is not different than "get rich quick." If we just say "God I accept Jesus as your only begotten son" and than never bother to learn and think about what was said, never bother to genuinely cultivate a relationship with god, but assume that on the day I died "I'll be in heaven for simply accepting him." This is not true, and than you see people who live there life being hypocrites to the one who proclaim's to followers that they need to be like him. Its lunancy, the idea of Christianity is not merely "Repent and Accept" its Transformation.


For a Pagan such as yourself and for a non-christian such as Bill, surely you can see that most people who proclaim to follow Christ, say it but never really practice what they preach. Yes, people falter, I dont expect them to be perfect, but there are those who decieve themselves and decieve others purposely and that is the type of Christian Evangelism I am addressing.


Jun 14, 2009 -- 8:40PM, Godfather89 wrote:

 Those who seek to know about the inner arm of christianity should join,


Why would they want to join????



So by the statement above you hopefully see where I am coming from. Those who join are those who genuinely wish to Love God and Christ, as the Christians they say themselves to be. Its not easy, the spiritual life is difficult but it is meant to transform. Those who are devoted are welcomed, most find the way on there own, on there own terms. However, some are also led as well. But they would "join" to learn more, thats why it may sound "exclusive" because, it cant be understood by those on the outside or those who dont have the ability to understand yet. Its like saying your in first grade and you want to go to middle school or high school or college even. Yes all enrolled will get there eventually but not yet.


Jun 15, 2009 -- 12:15AM, BillWitt wrote:

What type of person are you, in regards to your beliefs?   


I'm not a Christian, and I have absolutely no desire to be a Christian, and certainly not a traditional Christian.



Well than this path is not really an option for you than. Not because I wont let you or some unseen force wont let you, but because you posses no desire to want it. If you dont wish to understand the basics than what will make you wish to learn about the complex. Its like saying "I dont want to learn addition but I want to learn calculus, meanwhile you dont even know addition." Dont feel excluded because of someone outside of you; you carry the pass to get in within you.


Jun 15, 2009 -- 12:15AM, BillWitt wrote:

How can you simply call me "traditional" if I have barely begun explaining it?  


I called you a traditional Christian, because you said you were a "traditional" Christian.  I'll take your word for it.  If you want to explain your beliefs, go right ahead.  I've ask you if you wanted to discuss your beliefs several times, but so far you haven't.



Im traditional in the sense that, well let me explain very briefly the history to give you the answer as to how I am traditional. For a long time now, I have sought to go to the source (the heart) of Christs teachings, for his own sake. Christianity has unfortunately turned into a religion about Christ, instead of his teachings.


So today many westerns are leaving the west to go east in search of there spiritual nurishment (an effect of course when you forget the teachings and are concerned solely with the dogmatics of the teacher). Now I dont hate the East, but I have sought to uncover the western spirituality, so westerns might return back to the west for there spiritual nourishment. The so-called Inner Arm of Christianity is that means to spiritual nourishment. Now, I am not being boastful here, I am not claiming that "I HAVE SOLELY UNCOVERED WESTERN SPIRIRUALITY!" Because I am not, I am traditional only in the sense that I wish to help simply bring back the spiritual nourishment that the west once offered. I have read, and read, and studied.


But you see on my profile that I am also a progressive christian as well. Progresive in the sense that, I dont see Christianity as THE ONLY way to live in the light of ultimate reality. I also read and continue to read The Gnostic Gospels, and read several things that are not Christian. I just call myself a Christian because thats where I started and after all this traveling thats where I still have learned the most. I go for the spiritual and mystical/mysteries not so much the dogma, or if I do the minimal amount of dogma. Hopefully, this has set the record straight on things.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2009 - 12:56AM #14
BillWitt
Posts: 2,622

Jun 16, 2009 -- 8:44PM, Godfather89 wrote:

 Those who join are those who genuinely wish to Love God and Christ, as the Christians they say themselves to be.



Why would anyone who is not a Christian "genuinely wish to Love God and Christ"?????  If we had any desire to do this, we would already be Christians.     


it cant be understood by those on the outside or those who don't have the ability to understand yet.  


Oh, but I do understand.  Why would I want to worship according to an ancient book of mythology, written by ancient superstitious people???  I certainly understand that the Bible contains many contradictions, false statements, stories which aren't true, ones which are highly questionable, and stories which parallel ones in the OT, and from other religions.  The Bible is a book of mythology, and is not factually true.  Anyone who has even gone to middle school can determine this for themselves.     


If you don't wish to understand the basics than what will make you wish to learn about the complex.  


Then go ahead and explain the basics.  I am very familiar with the basics of Christian Theology, and when examined carefully, Christianity comes tumbling down like a house-made-out-of-cards.  I understand this, do you?    


Its like saying "I dont want to learn addition but I want to learn calculus, meanwhile you dont even know addition."   


Don't worry about me having difficulty understand complex concepts.  I'm perfectly comfortable with advanced theoretical mathematics in infinite dimensional space, or with the theory of geometries where the inside of an object is the same as the outside.  


For a long time now, I have sought to go to the source (the heart) of Christ's teachings, for his own sake.  


Did Jesus teach anything??  Almost all of his saying/teaching can be found in other writings from that time period, or earlier.  You will find them in writings of the Greek Coptic's, in writing of the Jewish teacher Hellil, in the writings about the Righteous Teacher of the Essenes, the sayings of Horus, Krishna, and other deities from that time.  Nothing unique about them.  The hypothetical Gospel Q, may have been just a collection of saying/teaching which came from a variety of different source. There is no evidence to support that these were actually the sayings/teachings of Jesus.  Of course, not all of his sayings/teaching were good, some are very objectionable, and we would never teach them today.   


Of course, for Jesus to have taught anything, he would have had to exist to do this.  The evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus, is extremely marginal.  Maybe he did exist, maybe he didn't.  If you claim Jesus taught these things, you will have to provide evidence to show that he actually did exist to be able to do any teaching.   


I have read, and read, and studied.  


If you are a college student, you haven't even started to study Christianity.  This is obvious from your posts.  You have about 30 or 40 more years to go. You need to study the Bible much more carefully, read other early Christian writings, read the thousands of pages of the Talmud to better understand the Jewish religion of Jesus at the time he reportedly lived, the mythology of the other religions of that time period, and the list goes on, and on, and on.  If you have any question about your religion, just ask  I might be able to help. 

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - -Isaac Asimov
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2009 - 8:09PM #15
Godfather89
Posts: 28

Jun 16, 2009 -- 8:44PM, Godfather89 wrote:

 Those who join are those who genuinely wish to Love God and Christ, as the Christians they say themselves to be.


Why would anyone who is not a Christian "genuinely wish to Love God and Christ"?????  If we had any desire to do this, we would already be Christians.


 


Well thats why its called esoteric, your not going to walk into the center of a building before first entering it. If you are not even in the building, than you are not going to know or desire to go to the center of the building.


Jun 16, 2009 -- 8:44PM, Godfather89 wrote:

it cant be understood by those on the outside or those who don't have the ability to understand yet.  


Oh, but I do understand.  Why would I want to worship according to an ancient book of mythology, written by ancient superstitious people???  I certainly understand that the Bible contains many contradictions, false statements, stories which aren't true, ones which are highly questionable, and stories which parallel ones in the OT, and from other religions.  The Bible is a book of mythology, and is not factually true.  Anyone who has even gone to middle school can determine this for themselves.



Wait, dont think I am a bible pounding fundamentalist, I am just as willing to admit that this is myth as you are. But back in the antiquity, Myths were designed to convey a message that could not be conveyed intellectually. The Bible is the Greatest Story ever told, I am willing to admit that. It never happened but the stuff in there always happen, not literally of course. But you do not understand. 


Jun 16, 2009 -- 8:44PM, Godfather89 wrote:

If you don't wish to understand the basics than what will make you wish to learn about the complex.  


Then go ahead and explain the basics.  I am very familiar with the basics of Christian Theology, and when examined carefully, Christianity comes tumbling down like a house-made-out-of-cards.  I understand this, do you?



Listen its clear your an athiest (wether spiritual or secular, it does not matter), so anything I put up your just going to attempt to knock down. I cant win with you, not because my "argument is weak" but simply because you will not listen. If you dont have the desire to learn genuinely, and only have it set in your mind to knock it down than, its really a waste of time.


Jun 16, 2009 -- 8:44PM, Godfather89 wrote:

Its like saying "I dont want to learn addition but I want to learn calculus, meanwhile you dont even know addition."   


Don't worry about me having difficulty understand complex concepts.  I'm perfectly comfortable with advanced theoretical mathematics in infinite dimensional space, or with the theory of geometries where the inside of an object is the same as the outside.



You understand the world, and the physical manifestation of things, but you dont have have any desire to understand anything spiritual. Your mindset (based on what you are writing) suggests to me that, you are so confident with what you know and the worldview you have selected for yourself that anything else is weak, stupid and dumb. So why should I bother, if you think this?


Jun 16, 2009 -- 8:44PM, Godfather89 wrote:

For a long time now, I have sought to go to the source (the heart) of Christ's teachings, for his own sake.  


Did Jesus teach anything??  Almost all of his saying/teaching can be found in other writings from that time period, or earlier.  You will find them in writings of the Greek Coptic's, in writing of the Jewish teacher Hellil, in the writings about the Righteous Teacher of the Essenes, the sayings of Horus, Krishna, and other deities from that time.  Nothing unique about them.  The hypothetical Gospel Q, may have been just a collection of saying/teaching which came from a variety of different source. There is no evidence to support that these were actually the sayings/teachings of Jesus.  Of course, not all of his sayings/teaching were good, some are very objectionable, and we would never teach them today.   


Of course, for Jesus to have taught anything, he would have had to exist to do this.  The evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus, is extremely marginal.  Maybe he did exist, maybe he didn't.  If you claim Jesus taught these things, you will have to provide evidence to show that he actually did exist to be able to do any teaching.



The words are meant to be contemplated upon all the more, Jesus was not out to make a religion of better moments. Your right I know that as well that somethings Christ said were most likely said by other before him. So one must contemplate what makes him so much more different than the others who said it before him. Once again, you think I am a Bible Thumping Christian and in your mindset I cant appeal to it, exactly why I said that this is esoteric work not meant for those on the outside or those not even part of it, let alone those who will attack it.  I cant appeal to an atheist about the inner arm of the Christian Tradition.


Jun 16, 2009 -- 8:44PM, Godfather89 wrote:

I have read, and read, and studied.  


If you are a college student, you haven't even started to study Christianity.  This is obvious from your posts.  You have about 30 or 40 more years to go. You need to study the Bible much more carefully, read other early Christian writings, read the thousands of pages of the Talmud to better understand the Jewish religion of Jesus at the time he reportedly lived, the mythology of the other religions of that time period, and the list goes on, and on, and on.  If you have any question about your religion, just ask  I might be able to help.



Ive read about 50 books on the teachings of Christ and the early church fahers. Yes I am quite familiar with most of the other works you mention.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2009 - 10:42PM #16
BillWitt
Posts: 2,622

Jun 19, 2009 -- 8:09PM, Godfather89 wrote:

 Well that's why its called esoteric, your not going to walk into the center of a building before first entering it. If you are not even in the building, than you are not going to know or desire to go to the center of the building.[/quote]


I know the building inside, outside, and center.  No thanks.  It is not one that appeals to me


If you don't think I know something about either the inside/outside or center of the building, then go right ahead and tell me about it.  I'll explain to you why I don't like it. 


The Bible is the Greatest Story ever told, I am willing to admit that.


Not to me, and I know the story extremely well. It is just a story of mythology, and you can find many very much like it.  Much better stories to read.


You understand the world, and the physical manifestation of things, but you dont have have any desire to understand anything spiritual.


Then go right ahead and explain what you mean by spirituality.  It sounds like something you are just dreaming up in your imagination, just like everyone else with a different form of spirituality. 


The words are meant to be contemplated upon all the more, 


Most of the good saying/teaching exist in other religions, and in other cultures.  Most of us, even if we are not from your religion, have contemplated them and/or considered equivalent ones, and don't need to read the Bible to be aware of them. 


Ive read about 50 books on the teachings of Christ and the early church fahers. Yes I am quite familiar with most of the other works you mention.


Expand you reading to other areas.  This should include the mythologies of other religions from that time period.  You need to, to have a better understanding of the time period.  50 books of early Christian writings is just a start.  There are around 30 other Gospel alone, which were not included in the Bible.  Even St. Augustine himself wrote more than 50 books and articles.  To understand the Jewish religion of Jesus, you should read the Talmud which is the size of a set of encyclopedia.  These are just for starters. 

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - -Isaac Asimov
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2009 - 10:35AM #17
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

Godfather89 (<- is that the year you were born?) - Bill is quite correct.  You DO need to expand your reading a lot.  I can't really speak for the Sufis (though I find Rabi'a's works amazing!) - but you should leave Kabbalah alone until you have THOROUGHLY studied Judaism AND have reached the age of 40.  That is the reccomendation - a very strong one! - from the teachers of Kabbalah to students who are Jewish.


I'd suggest that you leave Kabbalah alone, period.  It's a 'Jewish' thing, and without the proper background - which has depth you can't imagine! - you would gain very little if any benefit from it.  All you'd do would be to misunderstand it, and in doing so to misrepresent a facet of Jewish tradition to your Christian world.  Don't you think there's been more than enough of THAT going on?


If you'd like to do something positive, try denouncing the 'Christian Identity' doctrine being preached in this very forum, that SOME OF us Jews are the literal children of Eve and Satan......


Please understand,  I'm not trying to mock your sincere desire to learn:  I'm just sincerely questioning your approach.  Authentic Kabbalah is so very embedded within Jewish culture that I cannot imagine a gtrue teacher takng on any student ho doesn't ahve a complete in-depth understanding of Judaism.  Now when those teachers are telling people raised in observant Jewish homes to study Judaism 'til they're 40 first - do you see the incongruity?


How fluent is your Hebrew and Aramaic? And your Arabic?  There is NO WAY that translations are going to cut it for such studies.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2009 - 12:32PM #18
BillWitt
Posts: 2,622

Jun 20, 2009 -- 10:35AM, LeahOne wrote:

you should leave Kabbalah alone until you have THOROUGHLY studied Judaism AND have reached the age of 40. 



Godfather probably knows so little about Judaism (the religion of their founder), that it is very doubtful he as any idea whatsoever of what you mean by Kabbalah.  It always amazing how little Christians know about the Jewish religion, the supposed religion of their founder.  Of course, they don't know very much about their own religion either. 

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - -Isaac Asimov
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