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Switch to Forum Live View GODS CHOOSEN PEOPLE


 


Notice here two things:  1) that G-d is telling everyone what He considers righteous and 2) how G-d is NOT for the death of anyone--Jew or Gentile, but that they do what He just outlined!  No blood, not sacrifices, no offerings, no thousand word prayers, no conversion.  Just do what G-d states is righteous actions!    In fact, G-d begins the chapter by demanding to know who is spreading the lie/rumor that another person pays for the sins of the ones who commit the offense.  There is NO vicarious atonement.  Every person has to do their own soul work.  


Xians make two fatal mistakes.  They think that righteous people never sin and if they do, they can't be righteous again; a sort of "all or nothing" mentality.  G-d dismisses that notion in this chapter.  EVERYONE has a chance to do right. 


While it is VERY true that G-d formed an EVERLASTING Covenant with Israel (one He will never break), that does mean that the rest of the world is thrown to the dogs.  That is simply not true. G-d has quite a few words to say concerning the nations during the Redemption and how He will personally judge them and bring them to repentance.  However, He will not abandon Israel or His covenant with them.  Israel is considered His first born.  But that's okay.. because G-d is father to all and we can be a part of one HUGE family.  Just like it was in Eden, which really is the goal of the ENTIRE Hebrew Scriptures!


 


I really do hope this helps somewhat.

6 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2009 - 7:00PM #11
white cloud
Posts: 16

YES, I DID WANT  OUTSIDE INPUT. FOR EXAMPLE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT JEWISH OR CHRISTIAN MAY THINK THEIR CHOSEN SPIRITUAL GROUP IS THE CHOSEN GROUP. WE ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER ALL JEWS AND ALL GENTILES ARE NOT SAVED AND THEY MAY HAVE INPUT ABOUT THE QUESTION. THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT.


 


 

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2009 - 8:10PM #12
Redfrog777
Posts: 2,136

So, besides Islam..............what other group thinks they are the chosen group? Most "groups" here on the multifaith boards, don't lay claim to the "chosen" title. Though most will tell you that they were indeed chosen by the "group"(read path/religion) that they are a part of.


Clear as mud?  

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2009 - 11:44PM #13
gorm-sionnach
Posts: 1,663

Mar 18, 2009 -- 7:00PM, white cloud wrote:


YES, I DID WANT  OUTSIDE INPUT. FOR EXAMPLE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT JEWISH OR CHRISTIAN MAY THINK THEIR CHOSEN SPIRITUAL GROUP IS THE CHOSEN GROUP. WE ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER ALL JEWS AND ALL GENTILES ARE NOT SAVED AND THEY MAY HAVE INPUT ABOUT THE QUESTION. THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT.


 


 




First things first, host hat on.


I am unaware if you are familiar with the etiquette of internet forums, so I'll give you benefit of the doubt, this time. Please be aware that typing in all caps is akin to yelling and it is considered bad form to type an entire post as such.


Thank you,


Gorm


Beliefnet Host.


Host hat off.


Alright on your second point, you should keep in mind that many of the non-Abrahamaic faiths do not have the aspect of being the favoured peoples of their Gods, or they are favoured because they choose to follow or serve their gods in whatever ways are deemped appropriate.

Truth in our hearts, Strength in our arms, Fulfillment in our tongues.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2009 - 1:27PM #14
Kalimat
Posts: 30

Mar 13, 2009 -- 8:34PM, gorm-sionnach wrote:


Why are you asking this question on the interfaith board, the discuss Christanity/ Judism board would be a better place...



Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Babism and the Baha'i Faith, you mean.

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2009 - 2:03PM #15
chanalee
Posts: 57

Hi group of posters here. Leahone gives the best answer I have read here.  I think our "chosen-ness" has been a big problem for a lot of people.  I think it is because we tie our ego into our religion and say to G-d - me first - me first like little children and then we say to each other - my way is best - my way is the only way.


No way do we consider ourselves "special" - every race. every religion has something "special" about it and G-d is not limited by our understanding or lack of understanding in giving us guidance.  By the way the word Torah means guidance.


To answer the question where Adam and Eve the first Jews?  Abraham was the first Jew.  the word Hebrew means "crossed over".  Abraham left the land of his birth and his family because they where idol worshipers.  He crossed over to the other side, so to speak, to a faith in One G-d.  The story of Adam and Eve is an allegory about the human condition and can represent anyone.


Shalom All

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2009 - 5:59PM #16
Aryeha7
Posts: 18

Mar 13, 2009 -- 5:34PM, white cloud wrote:


WERE ADAM AND EVE JEWISH.? INSTEAD OF THE GENTILES WHY DID GOD CHOOSE JEWS AS HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE.HE LATER INCLUDED GENTILES WHO ACCEPTED HIM TO BE SAVED.




 


1)  First off, Adam and Eve weren't Jewish.. The term "Jew" comes from the tribe of Judah (I'll explain later).  There was no religion with Adam and Eve.  They communed/spoke with G-d directly.  They had to disobey a direct command and as a result were kicked out of the garden.  and NO, a devil didn't trick them and NO, they didn't start "original sin".  Those are xian inventions.  


To nutshell the story.. no one wanted to know G-d.. each thought they'd make up their own relationship with whatever god they wanted, never mind that Adam knew G-d.. but he was too busy eking out a living.  Then within 2000 years mankind really really sank to a low.  The judges perverted justice and took anyone's wives they wanted.  G-d was so enraged and disappointed with mankind that he sought to start over.  And incidentally, the text clearly said that it was man who sinned, so if the sin of angels copulating with women really happened (which the original hebrew makes it clear it did NOT.. it was judges who did it), why was man made to pay for the supposed sin of angels.. but anyway.. So we have the Noah story and the flood.


Noah's mission was to teach the world about G-d.  It didn't quite happen that way.  The connection with G-d wasn't reconnected until Abram.  He leaves everything behind in Ur Kasdim and journeys to.. well, even Abram didn't know.  G-d would eventually lead him to Canaan, and Abram undergoes ten tests.. which he passes to prove to himself and to G-d his loyalty to G-d.  As such, G-d forms a pact with Abram and he becomes Abraham. This covenant would be renewed with each generation.  


As for the "chosen" notion.  Being chosen is NOT "preferential treatment".  Chosen for a Jew means that G-d requires more of them than He does of the other nations.  The other nations have only seven laws they are to observe.  the Israelites, later "Judah-ites" (Jews) were given 613 and Yes, they ARE G-d's Mitzvot, Statutes and Ordinances.  Anyone not familiar with these lump them all together and call them "laws".  They are not.  As any society has various laws so to does Israel.  


The thing you MUST, MUST understand that one does NOT have to be Jewish to be considered righteous by G-d.  The Torah and the Prophets have always, ALWAYS taught that if a person repents of their ways and does what they are supposed to, they are considered righteous.  I know I'm going to get a lot of hooplah from xians on this, but trust me, this is what G-d HIMSELF had said.  I'm not interested in polemic battles here, nor will I answer any.  The Hebrew Scriptures make it very clear that there were non-Jews who were considered righteous:  Seth, Enoch, Noah, Job, Cyrus, etc.  There were quite a few.  It is the anti-semites who have lied and stated that Judaism demands one be Jewish to be righteous.  That is NOT so.  When the REAL Messiah comes, everyone will worship the One True G-d.  The irony is that the Non-Jewish Nations must observe the seven laws of Benei Noach.. while the Mitzvot, Chukim and Mishpatim will be observed by Israel.  G-d exacts more from Israel because they agreed to this.  And punishes Israel much more than other nations.  G-d is NOT a despot.  It simply means that Israel has a higher level of Holiness to obtain.  As such, such a review is done by G-d NOT others.  


G-d is concerned for all mankind.  He even point blank asked Ezekiel "Do I take delight in the destruction of the wicked??  Here's the entire chapter for your review.  I've put verses of special interest in bold.  I wanted to make sure you can see EVERYTHING in context-- pay particular interest to what G-d considers righteous and what a wicked person needs to do to find Divine Favor:


 


 


1. And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
2. "What do you mean that you use this parable over the land of Israel, saying, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3. As truly as I live, says the Lord God, you shall no longer use this parable in Israel.
4. Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die.
5. So a man who is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6. And does not eat [offerings of meals] on the mountains, and does not lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel; neither defiles his fellow man's wife nor approaches a woman in her period of separation,
7. And wrongs no man; what has been pledged for a debt he returns; [he] has committed no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry, and clothes the naked with garments,
8. Does not lend on interest, nor does he take any increase on a loan, keeps his hand back from wrong, executes true judgment between man and man,
9. Has walked in My statutes, and has kept My ordinances to deal truly-he is a righteous man; he shall surely live, says the Lord God.
10. If he beget a profligate son, a shedder of blood, and he commits upon his brother any of these [crimes].
11. And he does not do all these [good deeds], but has even eaten [offerings of a meal] to the mountains and defiled his fellow man's wife;
12. Wronged the poor and the needy, committed robberies, did not return pledges, lifted up his eyes to the idols, committed abomination;
13. Gave out on interest, accepted increase on loans -shall he then live? He shall not live! He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood falls back on himself!
14. And behold, if he beget a son, who sees all the sins of his father which he has done, and sees and does not do likewise;
15. He did not eat on the mountains and did not lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, did not defile his fellow man's wife,
16. Wronged no man; did not retain any pledge, and committed no robbery; his bread he gave to the hungry and the naked he covered with clothes;
17. From the poor he kept his hand back, interest and increase he did not take; My ordinances he kept, in My laws did he walk-he shall not die for the sins of his father, he shall surely live.
18. [But] his father, because he illegally suppressed, committed robbery against his brother and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
19. Yet you say, "Why does the son not bear with the sin of the father?" But the son has practiced justice and righteousness, he has kept all My laws and he carries them out; he shall surely live.

20. The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.



21. And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22. All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.

23. Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the Lord God. Is it not rather in his repenting of his ways that he may live?



24. And when the righteous repents of his righteousness and does wrong and does like all the abominations that the wicked man did, shall he live? All his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered; in his treachery that he has perpetrated and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.
25. Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is not right? Is it not rather your ways that are not right?
26. When a righteous man repents of his righteousness and does wrong and dies on that account; for the wrong that he has done he should die.
27. And when a wicked man repents of his wickedness that he has done, and does justice and righteousness, he will keep his soul alive.
28. He will see and repent of all his transgressions that he has committed-he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29. And yet the house of Israel say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Is it My ways that are not right, O house of Israel? Is it not rather your ways that are not right?
30. Therefore, every man according to his ways I will judge you, O house of Israel, says the Lord God: repent and cause others to repent of all your transgressions, and it will not be a stumbling block of iniquity for you.
31. Cast away from yourselves all your transgressions whereby you have transgressed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit, and why should you die, O house of Israel!
32. For I do not desire the death of him who dies, says the Lord God: so turn away and live!"

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2009 - 12:01PM #17
Globalnomad
Posts: 115

I'm a bit confused about question, relation between Adam & Eve and chosen people?


On Adam and Eve: in Islam we believe that both Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden apple and thus got expelled from heaven (not Eve's fault only). Also, being forced out of heaven was enough punishment, so no further punishment in sense of 'original sin'.


On Abraham: in Islam the story is slightly differently. God didn't ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, but Abraham dreamt about that. God didn't need Abraham to sacrifice his son, so changed to lamb.


On chosen people: as a Muslim I believe all people are equitable (we're not equal: some are young, some old, some men, some women; we're different, but equal worth - all 'children of Adam & Eve'). On Day of Judgment God only looks at our differences with respect to piety and good deeds (within our respective abilities and means - e.g. a subsistence farmer couldn't possibly be considered to have had same chances to change the world for the good as a president).


Sorry for lack of exact Quranic references: don't have my Quran at hand at the moment, but am willing to report them later. Also, me having my opinions, doesn't mean I don't respect others' views: no compulsion in religion. My 2p. In peace, globalnomad

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2009 - 3:37AM #18
NahumS
Posts: 1,761

I think that the whole point of the Adam and Eve story is that they weren't Jewish. All humankind is created in G-d's image and we all share common descent.


The special covenant between G-d and Israel came later - and maybe it was the result of human error. Mankind, as a whole, became more and more degraded, and lost its connection with the Divine. Time after time (the Flood, the Tower of Babel) humanity did not live up to its potential. Rather than reveal Himself to all mankind, G-d gave the Torah to one nation, the descendents of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, who were  uniquely faithful to G-d. Through the Jewish people accepting the Torah at Sinai, G-d made Himself known to the world. Christianity and Islam took the faith in the Creator and His demand for morality and righteousness and spread them in a way that Judaism could not, because Judaism centers around a particular nation.


Giving the Torah to one nation was an alternate way to influencing all of mankind to walk in G-d's ways. This is the messianic vision of Judaism - all mankind standing before G-d in peace and righteousness. The particular is the first step to the universal.

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 05, 2009 - 11:04PM #19
Heimdallsman
Posts: 433

Mar 18, 2009 -- 8:10PM, Redfrog777 wrote:


So, besides Islam..............what other group thinks they are the chosen group? Most "groups" here on the multifaith boards, don't lay claim to the "chosen" title. Though most will tell you that they were indeed chosen by the "group"(read path/religion) that they are a part of.


Clear as mud?  





The group of me, myself, and I think that we are the chosen, and everyone else is damned to Hell.  Sorry you're not me.  J/K.


 


Um, anywho, if you ask me, there are no chosen people besides humanity for Earth, as we have been given the spark that allows for reasonable thought beyond survival.


 


In Satan,


Mike.

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