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Switch to Forum Live View When proselytizers clash
5 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2008 - 4:25PM #91
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488
BillWitt,

With respect, I think the kind of argument you are advancing -- and it is excellent -- is better directed at a Protestant fundamentalist who insists that everything in the Bible is absolutely consistent, absolutely correct, and absolutely literal except when it is not literal. From Seraphim's postings and some essays he recommended to me, the Orthodox Christian faith he follows is a far cry from the bibliolatry advanced by fundamentalists.

Seraphim and I have quite different views about God and the Bible, but I can respect his faith whereas I cannot respect the bibliolatry and blasphemy promoted by fundamentalists. I make no claim to being able to prove the truth of what I believe, and my impression is that the evidence and arguments to which Seraphim refers are things that are meaningful within his own faith -- not the same thing as, for example, quoting Genesis to "prove" to the world that evolution is a fraud.

The two main issues, to me, are:
1. People are intellectually free to believe things in the absence of supportive evidence, as long as there is also no clearly contradictory evidence. Some of the more militant atheists sneer at that notion, but it does allow me to accept what I experience as truth even if I cannot demonstrate it objectively to others.
2. It is legally permissible but intellectually dishonest (and very annoying) to proselytize, especially on the basis of deception.

We should direct our fire against those who attempt to "convert" others through deceit and intimidation and indoctrination of small children -- that would be the fundamentalists, who do not comprise all of Christendom even though they make enough noise for all of Christendom.
I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2008 - 6:39PM #92
gillyflower
Posts: 5,325
I think that when people try to tell other people that their myths are true, then they open themselves to having to prove that they really are.
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2008 - 4:25PM #93
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488
BillWitt,

With respect, I think the kind of argument you are advancing -- and it is excellent -- is better directed at a Protestant fundamentalist who insists that everything in the Bible is absolutely consistent, absolutely correct, and absolutely literal except when it is not literal. From Seraphim's postings and some essays he recommended to me, the Orthodox Christian faith he follows is a far cry from the bibliolatry advanced by fundamentalists.

Seraphim and I have quite different views about God and the Bible, but I can respect his faith whereas I cannot respect the bibliolatry and blasphemy promoted by fundamentalists. I make no claim to being able to prove the truth of what I believe, and my impression is that the evidence and arguments to which Seraphim refers are things that are meaningful within his own faith -- not the same thing as, for example, quoting Genesis to "prove" to the world that evolution is a fraud.

The two main issues, to me, are:
1. People are intellectually free to believe things in the absence of supportive evidence, as long as there is also no clearly contradictory evidence. Some of the more militant atheists sneer at that notion, but it does allow me to accept what I experience as truth even if I cannot demonstrate it objectively to others.
2. It is legally permissible but intellectually dishonest (and very annoying) to proselytize, especially on the basis of deception.

We should direct our fire against those who attempt to "convert" others through deceit and intimidation and indoctrination of small children -- that would be the fundamentalists, who do not comprise all of Christendom even though they make enough noise for all of Christendom.
I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2008 - 6:39PM #94
gillyflower
Posts: 5,325
I think that when people try to tell other people that their myths are true, then they open themselves to having to prove that they really are.
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2008 - 10:25PM #95
BillWitt
Posts: 2,622
[QUOTE=gillyflower;884278]I think that when people try to tell other people that their myths are true, then they open themselves to having to prove that they really are.[/QUOTE]

I agree Gilly.  As far as I am concerned, they can believe these myth as much as they want.  But, if they start telling me, or implying they are true (or any part thereof), or use them in conversations as if they are true, then they open themselves up to having to prove they really are.  Big problem, they can't even show that any part of the Gospel stories are true.  And of course, I have a perfect right to show  they are not, and this is fairly easy to do.   Boy, do most Christian hate this.
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - -Isaac Asimov
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2008 - 11:12PM #96
BillWitt
Posts: 2,622
Heretic,

I know the Eastern Orthodox Church is a far cry from the Protestant fundamentalist Church.  It surprised me (on another Thread) that he reacted the way he did to some of my early Post.  I original just said I disagreed with him on a number of items, and I explained why.  He said "No, you are wrong" to many of these, and I then stated providing the evidence to support my claims.  Then he said my evidence was wrong (which it wasn't) and made vain attempts to dismiss it.   I did not expect this from an Eastern Orthodox Christian, but that's what I got.  He may not be a Protestant fundamentalist, but he ended up defending his religion, and trying to convince me his religion was true, just like a fundamentalist.  Since he reacted to what I said just like a fundamentalist, I responded to him as if he was.

[QUOTE] 1. People are intellectually free to believe things in the absence of supportive evidence, as long as there is also no clearly contradictory evidence. [/QUOTE]

For some of the things he was trying to convince were true, there is an overwhelming amount of clear contradictory evidence.  And when he made claims in his attempts to show me was wrong, I kept asking him for evidence to support his claims.  He never gave any which could not be dismissed easily. 

[QUOTE] 2. It is legally permissible but intellectually dishonest (and very annoying) to proselytize, especially on the basis of deception.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what Seraphim's motives were for posting on the proselytizing board, where many are not Christians.  Although he did not say he was trying to convert others, his first posts (on another Thread) were very long expressions of his Christian beliefs, and from the tone, he seemed to be implying that what he was saying was all true, and should not be questioned.  When I did question them, he did object.  Almost all of his posts contain large portions expressing his Christian beliefs as if they were true.  Why do this on this Board?

He most have known that many of us would disagree with him, and I simple expressed this in my posts, and explained why.  If he wants to challenge my explanations, that was completely up to him.  He could have just said, "I understand, your beliefs are different that mine," but he didn't.  Instead, he attempted to show the beliefs he was expressing were true, and that what I was saying was not.
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - -Isaac Asimov
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2009 - 7:27PM #97
Godgirl
Posts: 973
THanks for the good laugh Heretic for Christ when you said this "some have gone so far as to say that all animals go to hell also, because they do not recognize Christ as savior" which i guess was from someone else...pretty funny.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2009 - 7:28PM #98
Godgirl
Posts: 973
Just out of curiousity (I am not looking to convert or anything) but who are all of these (I guess there Gods?)
Odin, Thor, Tyr, and Freya?
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2009 - 8:29PM #99
gorm-sionnach
Posts: 1,663

Godgirl wrote:

Just out of curiousity (I am not looking to convert or anything) but who are all of these (I guess there Gods?)
Odin, Thor, Tyr, and Freya?



Inquiry is always welcome, it shows you have a willingess to learn and expand your knoweldge.

All and John T Mainer are members of Asatru, a Norse/Scandanavian/Germanic (have you guys come to a concensus on that one yet ;)) recontructionist religion, meaning they practice as close as possible to the Scandanavian Pagan (pre-Christian) practices as gleaned from by oral tradition, literature, folk traditions and practioces, history texts and UPG. All the Gods (and Gddesses) you listed are from their mythology. I'll leave them to give you the specifics.

Many of the Pagans here are Wiccans, who usually speak in general terms about their Gods/ Goddesses, sometimes they have names, sometimes not but rare is the occasion where they will be identified to anyone outside the individual.

I'm a Gaelic Polytheist, one of the paths of Celtic Reconstructionism, much like Asatru, except focused on the pre-Christian Celtic peoples, as opposed to the Germanic ones. GP's focus primarily on the Irish myths and practices, but often Scottish too as they have the same linguistic roots (old Irish).

Truth in our hearts, Strength in our arms, Fulfillment in our tongues.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2009 - 8:30PM #100
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Godgirl wrote:

Just out of curiousity (I am not looking to convert or anything) but who are all of these (I guess there Gods?)
Odin, Thor, Tyr, and Freya?





They are Norse Gods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Norse_gods

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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