This is something while it wears some of the trappings of Evangelical prosylitizism cannot rightly be laid at their feet or those of their fundamentalist brethen. I know of none of them that teach or condone such behavior as displayed by that boy.
There are mainstream Christians who advocate violence and the utter destruction of evil all the time. Most recently and most famously, both Pastor Rick Warren and Sean Hannity used the Bible to advocate dropping a bomb on the people of Iran because; "evil cannot be negotiated with". See it for yourself;LINK
Believing that dropping a bomb on an implacable hostile/enemy nation in a time of war is acceptable, even necessary, is not quite the same thing as teaching a child to stab another child with a pen while haranguing her about dress norms.
I'm pretty sure neither Rick Warran or Sean Hannity advocate their listeners to take up pen and paper punch and go mug someone in the name of Jesus.
In the case you brought up I rather suppect both think the idea of permitting Iran (who hates us) to get hold of nuclear ordanance is just too dangerous to permit and might well justify preemptive action to stop it. But opinions may differ.
So I think the connection you are trying to make between the two is tenuous at its most generous best.
One thing I am certain of, if their intent was to "win" Iran for Christ, it would not involve bombs or bloodshed (beyond that blood of Christians who might find themselves martyred for their witness (as indeed is already happening in Iraq and Iran...murders, beatings, desecrations, displacements).
Believing that dropping a bomb on an implacable hostile/enemy nation in a time of war is acceptable, even necessary, is not quite the same thing as teaching a child to stab another child with a pen while haranguing her about dress norms.
I'm pretty sure neither Rick Warran or Sean Hannity advocate their listeners to take up pen and paper punch and go mug someone in the name of Jesus.
In the case you brought up I rather suppect both think the idea of permitting Iran (who hates us) to get hold of nuclear ordanance is just too dangerous to permit and might well justify preemptive action to stop it. But opinions may differ.
So I think the connection you are trying to make between the two is tenuous at its most generous best.
One thing I am certain of, if their intent was to "win" Iran for Christ, it would not involve bombs or bloodshed (beyond that blood of Christians who might find themselves martyred for their witness.
Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you. - Jesus
Violence begets violence. Only by love is hate overcome, this is the eternal law. - Buddha.
Denial of the violence, large-scale and small-scale, within Christian scriptures and Christian culture, denies the teaching of Christ and does irreparable damage to the Christian religion. Jesus's teaching here, had it right. But so much else over-turns and clouds that message.
Dropping a bomb should never be considered necessary, particularly a nuclear one. And no human being is an enemy. You can hate me that does not (from my point of view) make you an enemy. I may not like you for it, but that does not mean I will consider you an enemy
Why are christians not all Pacifist is beyond me.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato.. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
I generally hate these kind of hypotheticals, but are you telling me if you saw some stranger brutalizing your spouse or child you would not intervene beyond a demure, "Excuse me, would you please stop hurting my family?"
Nations and governments are not individuals. What is right for us as persons, to turn the other cheek for example is not necessarily incumbant upon goverments which are established to serve and protect its citizens (ostensibly). St. John never told soldiers to stop being soldiers. He told them not to be bullies or extortioners. St. Paul said that the magistrate does not bear the sword in vain. When Christ had dealings with Roman officers He did not chide them for performing their duties. So you can't set a statement given in one context into a different one and try to rightly apply it.
I would agree with the belief at a personal level that no human being is my enemy. I think St. John Chrysostom (or one of his contemporaries) said "No man is my enemy except I first war against him in my heart." Yet so long as we live in a fallen world we live with others who would make prey of their neighbors. To resist not evil is a choice an individual person can make, but it is the resisting of evil which is the precise reason governments are rightly instituted. The burdens of government can be exercised with a great deal of humanity and it does not have to make use of a death penalty as a mode of correction/vengance, but the occasion of war is different. People die and things get broken in the process.
[QUOTE=Friend!;1019203]This is bogus nonsense. Don't post falsehoods. You know very well the truth is that this has nothing to do with free speech which what evangelism is. How shameful that some unAmerican, self-appointed censors would exploit this fight among children to further their agenda. I have no respect for such exploitive behavior.
I rejoice in the many thousands of daily examples of real evangelism in the public schools by both children to peers and by teachers among staff. This is America. The Christian principles of the right to evangelize still rule. That is the law in America.[/QUOTE]
This is what evangelism does to children. This is what happens when you teach a child that others are 'wrong' or 'evil'. This is what the Christian fundamentalist message does.
Churchianity, by substituting creed for Christ and dogma instead of the divine facts of being, has stripped Love of her royal robes and has left her standing an unheeded beggar in the universe of God. - Rev. W. John Murray
Am I reading this right? Is friend saying it is alright for a child to assault another child in the name of Jesus?
Because disclaiming the event and calling Rosie essentially a liar. That is exactly what he is doing.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato.. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
As noted Evangelicals rarely post here or Christians of any traditional stripe for that matter. It is not a very welcoming thread for Christians. Indeed on one of my early forays here I was quickly informed by someone, I forget who that this was not a forum for Christians but was more for those trying to get away from it and its followers. So if that is the case the absence of comment by Evangelicals or other Christians should come as no surprise...you might as well look for skipjack tuna swimming upstream in the Ohio River.
As for the point under discussion, I would have to agree with Mr. Paine that it is time to secure the services of a lawyer because something is terribly wrong with either that boy, his parents or both.
The question I have is not who gave the boy Chick Tracts (and I agree they are pretty tasteless and insulting), but rather why did a stranger have to stop the fight, where was the boy's mom or dad? It could be like the little girl he had gone unaccompanied where should not have gone. That would have some bearing I think on how this ultimately resolves.
On the question of prosylitization I think any adult can see this has absolutely nothing to do with prosylitizing (welcomed or not) rather it involved verbal and dangerous physical assault. There was no intent to pursuade or even coerce the girl into another belief system. The intent was to berate and brutalize.
The refusal of the boy's parents to take responsibility for medical bills under the free speech flag that protects the right to prosyletize is indeed puzzling. The only sane reason I could think of would be on the advice of their own lawyer to preclude as far as possible any implied admission of culpability.
This is something while it wears some of the trappings of Evangelical prosylitizism cannot rightly be laid at their feet or those of their fundamentalist brethen. I know of none of them that teach or condone such behavior as displayed by that boy, and I grew up in the middle of them as one of them and was one for a lot of my life. You might as well paint all non-Christians/anti-Christians with the same brush as the Columbine High School Killers who went around asking certain of their victims if they believed in God before shooting them.
I also think it would be naive not to hold the boy accountable for his deed. I remember 7 well enough. My world view may not have been very nuanced or very wide but I knew that stabbing people was wrong, and I know within its limits a 7 year old mind is entirely capable on its own of plotting and carrying out evil deeds without any particular encouragement. If the boy was acting out some psychological trauma from home, then he needs the accountability as a way to heal. And if he just did it on his own he need the accountabity in hopes of healing and in furtherance of the need of a civil society to be protected from the predations of nascent psychopaths.
The OP stated:
Rosie-Toes]I just received a phone call from my best friend. Her little girl, who calls me "auntie" is in the hospital. I am waiting for my ride to go and see her. The child who hurt her is being held in custody. The child was constantly telling her that she'll go to hell for being a tomboy, calling her "lesbian" and trying to "save" her. This is what proselytism does. This is what it does to children. I'm sorry. I just needed to tell someone. I'm so scared.
Post 12 followed up with wrote:
I just received a phone call from my best friend. Her little girl, who calls me "auntie" is in the hospital. I am waiting for my ride to go and see her. The child who hurt her is being held in custody. The child was constantly telling her that she'll go to hell for being a tomboy, calling her "lesbian" and trying to "save" her. This is what proselytism does. This is what it does to children. I'm sorry. I just needed to tell someone. I'm so scared.[/quote]
Post 12 followed up with:
Rosie-Toes]She's doing okay. She had a broken nose, broken jaw, and a shallow stab wound from a ballpoint pen of all things.
I'm with her older sister right now, who finally dozed off on the couch. Poor little thing's been a sack of tears all day.
The girl (Megan) in the hospital is 6. The boy who hurt her is 7, I think. I don't think they can charge him with a hate crime. I don't know what they're going to do to him.
Megan keeps blaming herself, because she went to the park across the street without permission (she's not supposed to go alone) and that's when it happened. A man walking his dog pulled the boy off and called the police.
It started back in August. The boy kept giving her those Jack Chick tracts, and saying she'll go to hell cuz she's a "lesbian." She just likes boy's clothes and football. She's a rough-and-tumble kind of girl.
She's okay though. We saw her, fully conscious, before we left. She's happy because she has green bandages. LOL! The stab wound was shallow and didn't hit any vital organs. Her nose and jaw should heal in a few weeks.
Finally, post #34 state wrote:
She's doing okay. She had a broken nose, broken jaw, and a shallow stab wound from a ballpoint pen of all things.
I'm with her older sister right now, who finally dozed off on the couch. Poor little thing's been a sack of tears all day.
The girl (Megan) in the hospital is 6. The boy who hurt her is 7, I think. I don't think they can charge him with a hate crime. I don't know what they're going to do to him.
Megan keeps blaming herself, because she went to the park across the street without permission (she's not supposed to go alone) and that's when it happened. A man walking his dog pulled the boy off and called the police.
It started back in August. The boy kept giving her those Jack Chick tracts, and saying she'll go to hell cuz she's a "lesbian." She just likes boy's clothes and football. She's a rough-and-tumble kind of girl.
She's okay though. We saw her, fully conscious, before we left. She's happy because she has green bandages. LOL! The stab wound was shallow and didn't hit any vital organs. Her nose and jaw should heal in a few weeks.[/quote]
Finally, post #34 stated
Rosie-Toes]Well, their mom came home earlier today and told me what is going on. The boy's parents are refusing to pay the medical bills. My friend is a Canadian citizen, and says that she should take Megan up to Canada to get treated for free (ridiculous--we live in New Mexico). They also say there is no proof that it was their son who did it (the man who was walking his dog is being called in as a witness). Teachers are also being asked to testify to the harrassment. The parents say that proselytizing is NOT harrassment, and that they should have just "taught their daughter how to be a girl."
Megan's temperature is still really high (103.4). She's been conscious a couple of times today, but still not very well. Her older sister asked to see her again. She handled it a little better this time, and just sat with Megan for a little bit.
Then, like any good auntie, I took her out for ice cream afterwards. I'm not sure what else I can do. I feel useless.
Emphasis added in all posts
Obviously, someone taught this child to hate GBLT people. This is not a concept he picked up on his own. Ultimately, the parents are responsible for teaching this child right from wrong, and there is no way I can be convinced that it is right to break another child's nose and jaw and stab them with a pen because the perpetrator doesn't like the victim's religion or what he assumes (wrongly) to be her lifestyle. The parent's reaction that the victim's parents should have wrote:
Well, their mom came home earlier today and told me what is going on. The boy's parents are refusing to pay the medical bills. My friend is a Canadian citizen, and says that she should take Megan up to Canada to get treated for free (ridiculous--we live in New Mexico). They also say there is no proof that it was their son who did it (the man who was walking his dog is being called in as a witness). Teachers are also being asked to testify to the harrassment. The parents say that proselytizing is NOT harrassment, and that they should have just "taught their daughter how to be a girl."
Megan's temperature is still really high (103.4). She's been conscious a couple of times today, but still not very well. Her older sister asked to see her again. She handled it a little better this time, and just sat with Megan for a little bit.
Then, like any good auntie, I took her out for ice cream afterwards. I'm not sure what else I can do. I feel useless.[/quote] Emphasis added in all posts
Obviously, someone taught this child to hate GBLT people. This is not a concept he picked up on his own. Ultimately, the parents are responsible for teaching this child right from wrong, and there is no way I can be convinced that it is right to break another child's nose and jaw and stab them with a pen because the perpetrator doesn't like the victim's religion or what he assumes (wrongly) to be her lifestyle. The parent's reaction that the victim's parents should have "taught their daughter how to be a girl." shows me that they have absolutely no concern for the person their little brat attacked, and someone with a working brain should explain to them that proselytizing after being asked to stop is harassment. You cannot convince me that this was a religiously motivated attack perpetrated by a young child who has never been taught right from wrong.
"When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am a friend of its happiness: When these things can be said, then may the country boast its constitution and its government." -- Thomas Paine: The Rights Of Man (1791)
Am I reading this right? Is friend saying it is alright for a child to assault another child in the name of Jesus?
Because disclaiming the event and calling Rosie essentially a liar. That is exactly what he is doing.
Friend!'s post has been reported. I don't think he was approving of the attack. I just think he is asserting that Rosie made the whole thing up to slur Christians. Evangelical Christians are capable of committing violent acts based on their beliefs, and if Friend! can't admit it, that's his problem.
"When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am a friend of its happiness: When these things can be said, then may the country boast its constitution and its government." -- Thomas Paine: The Rights Of Man (1791)
This is bogus nonsense. Don't post falsehoods. You know very well the truth is that this has nothing to do with free speech which what evangelism is. How shameful that some unAmerican, self-appointed censors would exploit this fight among children to further their agenda. I have no respect for such exploitive behavior.
I rejoice in the many thousands of daily examples of real evangelism in the public schools by both children to peers and by teachers among staff. This is America. The Christian principles of the right to evangelize still rule. That is the law in America.
mainecaptain wrote:
Am I reading this right? Is friend saying it is alright for a child to assault another child in the name of Jesus?
Because disclaiming the event and calling Rosie essentially a liar. That is exactly what he is doing.
In Friend's defense, I think what he's saying is that the boy's violence has nothing to do with evangelism,,,,,,that if the boy is a violent individual, he'd be violent about Jesus Christ, baseball, apple pie, or Santa Claus,,,,we've seen childhood violence and parental excusing it for years in little league and children's sports,,,,it's part of the same societal issue.
I think he's ALSO saying that this isn't "true" evangelism, in the same vein that people often say that some aren't "true" Christians,,,,,Hitler wasn't a "true" Christian, for example, as he advocated the genocide of 10+ million people,,,
And I do understand your point, Friend. But what I'm saying to you is this,,,,evangelism in the wrong hands DOES turn violent,,,,,when we create an atomosphere where those who do not share our religious beliefs are evil, then it becomes OK to treat the evil ones like crap,,,,
and THIS, my Friend, is the result. It gets WAY out of hand,,,,,,,Holly
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