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Switch to Forum Live View One's relationship to the Divine
6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 1:28PM #21
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

sirjacen wrote:

All...why not?  What about the metaphor of a spouse doesn't fit?  Just a question if you want to share, because I think we can learn about each other as well through sharing why we don't believe the Divine (or our relationship to it) is so-and-so.



How to explain this...

My concept of a marriage is two individuals in a partnership, and working towards the common interests of that partnership.  I don't see myself as being in a partnership with the divine.  Occasionally we will pursue common interests, but we won't set aside our individual interests to do so.  We may discuss them, and offer advice on them, but that's about it.  It's really like golfing buddies, or something like that.  You appreciate their company, their advice, and will help them if you can, but it's not like a marriage. 

Part of this may come from a different concept of the divine.  Mine aren't omni-omni.

all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 3:26PM #22
Shelterkeep
Posts: 81
Hello, everyone! I've missed you!

Brace yourselves. As is typical for me, I've just about written a book here. :D Here's what I originally thought to say about this:

To me, a formal marriage involves either some earthly legality or some other form of societal recognition, not just a personal relationship, even one that includes a commitment. Marriage may or may not involve religion.

My relationship to what's referred to by many as "God" is too deeply personal for it to be appropriate for anyone else's recognition to have anything to do with it. (Being a shelterkeep, however, while it has everything to do with God, is also about my relationship to other people.) So, no, I wouldn't think of my relationship to God as being spousal. Also, it's too multifaceted to limit to what I'd reasonably expect between married adult human beings.

This is not to say I don't experience what one could call a "love affair" of sorts with the Divine. Hey, let's not lose the romance! Besides, isn't it great love that motivates us best (or at least should motivate us best) to do our utmost for God?

Now, here's what else I thought of by the time I was done proofreading:

1) While I'm not legally allowed to marry my girlfriend, not only do my friends think of us as married, my sister even thinks of my girlfriend in terms of being her "sister-in-law". And, while it wasn't long ago that almost nobody wanted to approve of - or even acknowledge - a relationship like ours between two women, that never invalidated such relationships. So, how hung up on the marriage debate am I becoming, and how much is that affecting my thoughts about being a "spouse" to God?

2) How much of people's reaction to calling their relationship to God or their god(s) / goddess(es) spousal has to do with the association of marriage with sex? For some, the relationship is also sexual, and for some that's an appalling idea. Others just don't care, and it's not a factor for them.

3) On a related note, how much of the difficulty has to do with the idea of being a child of God at the same time? That would make thinking of oneself as a spouse of God difficult for many. To allow for both might be possible and even easy for someone who either sees no sexual aspect or whose multifaceted view makes their relationship to God so unique and distinct from other relationships that there isn't an issue. For others, though, it's too much mixing, and the idea might just creep them out.

4) I wouldn't be fair to my relationship and to the woman I love if I didn't acknowledge that things between us involve a lot more than what one might normally list as being part of a marriage between adults. Sometimes we act towards each other as teacher and student, because we learn from each other all the time. Sometimes we're like parent and child, caring for each other when we're sick and taking turns being the grown-up when one of us needs, as we jokingly say, a chance to be two. Everybody has moody times and days when it's hard to cope, but it's always easier to get through with two than when alone. The best of marriages are like this, I think, and the best of friendships can be this way, too.

I still don't consider myself God's spouse, and maybe it's because that's just not the way I feel, and not for any better reason than that. *shrug*

As I always did before, I'm really enjoying the thoughtful posts around here, as well as some of the tag lines I'm seeing at the ends of posts!
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 6:12PM #23
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,779
Shelterkeep That was really nice thank you.:)
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 9:43PM #24
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,447
[QUOTE=sirjacen;713145]All...why not?  What about the metaphor of a spouse doesn't fit?  Just a question if you want to share, because I think we can learn about each other as well through sharing why we don't believe the Divine (or our relationship to it) is so-and-so.


peace...jason[/QUOTE] I believe the metaphor fits but i think it applies to those that have unadulterated love. When the love is very intimate and personal the lover and beloved become like one. I believe the spouse metaphor is a representation of  the highest expression of love.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 10:52PM #25
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,779

williejhonlo wrote:

I believe the metaphor fits but i think it applies to those that have unadulterated love. When the love is very intimate and personal the lover and beloved become like one. I believe the spouse metaphor is a representation of  the highest expression of love.

That actually sounds quite insulting I don't know if you realize it. It sounds like you might be implying our relationship with our gods is less then yours might be.

Our relationships with our gods are extremely intimate & deep, at least  mine is, And those others here I imagine their relationships are no less so., but no mine is not that of a spouse and I would not want it to be.

Honestly to me that sound unpleasant, my relationship with a spouse should be different otherwise you are married to more then one, Your god(s) and your human spouse, not for me, might work for some, not for me.
And I find it an odder metaphor considering many christians consider god a man.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 11:16PM #26
TigersEyeDowsing
Posts: 6,833
[QUOTE=Chiyo;713595]Jason -

There are some major differences between how Christianity views God and how Buddhism views the Divine.

1) Christianity believes that God is both external and is a person. And moreover, is a person who is outside of nature. At least, since the Fall. And the only way to become "one" with God, as in a spousal relationship, is to repent of your sins and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

2) Buddhism does not believe that God is external, does not believe God is person, does not believe in sin and finally, believes that the Divine indwells [COLOR=red]all people, all animals, all plants and all things and not just a select few.[/COLOR]

Your Good News is that, if you (generic) repent, God will come back. Our Good News is, the Divine never left.[/QUOTE]

That's so nice Chiyo - We share the Good News :D
Churchianity, by substituting creed for Christ and dogma instead of the divine facts of being, has stripped Love of her royal robes and has left her standing an unheeded beggar in the universe of God. - Rev. W. John Murray
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 26, 2008 - 4:39AM #27
Chiyo
Posts: 5,799

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:

That's so nice Chiyo - We share the Good News :D



((((T.E.D.)))) :D

You're such a pleasant fellow, I'd share anything with you. Even a summer cold.... :eek:

Ok, nevermind, I got just a little carried away. :o

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 26, 2008 - 7:29AM #28
gillyflower
Posts: 5,325
I've just never been able to wrap my mind around that idea of married to Yahweh or Jesus or whomever because to me marriage includes sex (I know! Some people here are probably thinking "I only wish!") But saving yourself physically for marriage is something the Christians harp on so it is pretty natural to think that. So every time this comes up I'm thinking that the people who want to be their god's lover want to have sex with them. Which is fine, if that is what you want. Many a human has had sex with the gods and produced - but then that is included in the Christian myths too. Jesus was a product of that.

My relationship with my gods is based upon love but it's not sexual in nature. I of course would not rule that out since what do I know? If a fantastic looking god showed up in my bedroom I probably wouldn't say no. :)
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 26, 2008 - 9:09AM #29
sirjacen
Posts: 963
[QUOTE=Chiyo;713595]Jason -

There are some major differences between how Christianity views God and how Buddhism views the Divine.

1) Christianity believes that God is both external and is a person. And moreover, is a person who is outside of nature. At least, since the Fall. And the only way to become "one" with God, as in a spousal relationship, is to repent of your sins and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

2) Buddhism does not believe that God is external, does not believe God is person, does not believe in sin and finally, believes that the Divine indwells [COLOR=red]all people, all animals, all plants and all things and not just a select few.[/COLOR]

Your Good News is that, if you (generic) repent, God will come back. Our Good News is, the Divine never left.[/QUOTE]

Of course.


peace...jason
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 26, 2008 - 9:17AM #30
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

gillyflower wrote:

I've just never been able to wrap my mind around that idea of married to Yahweh or Jesus or whomever because to me marriage includes sex (I know! Some people here are probably thinking "I only wish!") But saving yourself physically for marriage is something the Christians harp on so it is pretty natural to think that. So every time this comes up I'm thinking that the people who want to be their god's lover want to have sex with them. Which is fine, if that is what you want. Many a human has had sex with the gods and produced - but then that is included in the Christian myths too. Jesus was a product of that.

My relationship with my gods is based upon love but it's not sexual in nature. I of course would not rule that out since what do I know? If a fantastic looking god showed up in my bedroom I probably wouldn't say no. :)





Whew.  This is a toughie, isn't.  I am not sure I could put my relationship with my gods into words.  Spouse?  Similar, perhaps.  The intimacy is certainly there, but as gilly said, it is quite a bit different.  My relationship to my gods has different aspects than my relationship with my husband.  Sex is certainly one part.  ;)

And of course, my gods are administers of the almighty clue-by-four, and my husband is not.  ;)

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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