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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 5:52PM #51
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

david_walker wrote:

Tameless,

"The main thing about the "Truth" issue- is that it isn't neccessarily true for everyone else, even thought the big black book may say it is. That's what it really boils down to- it's not true because it says it is. It's true for you because you believe it is. We don't believe it is, so it's not "Truth" with a capital t for us."

I am not sure what you mean by this; why can't a person believe religion to be more than "true for himself," and if he does, who are we to say he can't? What is the point of freedom of thought if it used it to force people into just a more subtle box? If I have totally missed the point of this statement, forgive me, but the consistency of the principle("its true for you because you believe it") has always puzzled me.





Sure he can believe his religion is true for everyone. But that doesn't mean I have to believe it, too.  I have seen things that prove - to me- that my religion is true for me.  But my gods haven't said a thing about anyone else.  Quite frankly I don't think it's my business what anyone believes.  And vice versa.  UPG, after all.  ;)

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 5:53PM #52
Spiritdowser
Posts: 48

david_walker wrote:

Tameless,

"The main thing about the "Truth" issue- is that it isn't neccessarily true for everyone else, even thought the big black book may say it is. That's what it really boils down to- it's not true because it says it is. It's true for you because you believe it is. We don't believe it is, so it's not "Truth" with a capital t for us."

I am not sure what you mean by this; why can't a person believe religion to be more than "true for himself," and if he does, who are we to say he can't? What is the point of freedom of thought if it used it to force people into just a more subtle box? If I have totally missed the point of this statement, forgive me, but the consistency of the principle("its true for you because you believe it") has always puzzled me.




Because we only have control over our own minds and hearts.   The organized religions which require members to "believe" their adopted dogma are the ones to put us in a box.  A box of beliefs from which we are not supposed to deviate.   That, to me, is unacceptable so I search out my own Truth instead of blindly accepting someone else's.  In the end, they may turn out to be the same but I did not take any shortcuts to get there.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 5:56PM #53
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Spiritdowser wrote:

[/i]


Because we only have control over our own minds and hearts.   The organized religions which require members to "believe" their adopted dogma are the ones to put us in a box.  A box of beliefs from which we are not supposed to deviate.   That, to me, is unacceptable so I search out my own Truth instead of blindly accepting someone else's.  In the end, they may turn out to be the same but I did not take any shortcuts to get there.




Way O.T.:  Spiritdowser, what does that phrase you have in your signature mean?


We now return you to the topic at hand.  :p

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 6:32PM #54
Redfrog777
Posts: 2,136
Dave,

“why can't a person believe religion to be more than "true for himself," and if he does, who are we to say he can't?”

Any person can believe that there religion is the greatest and grandest that there is. They have every right to believe that. No one here is saying that they can’t believe that. However if you will notice people are saying “ That it is true for you, does not make it true for me”. 

  Look dude, a friend of mine is color blind. In his eyes the world is black, white and shades of gray. The idea of color never crosses his mind. The idea of a lack of color to me is hard to fathom? Now we can both be looking at the very same object let’s say a building. We may be looking at the same building, but we are not “seeing” the same building. Both points of view are True, but only so from the individual observers point of view.

Now, a lot of people feel like they see in color. But the guy that is colorblind keeps insisting that they are wrong. And are going to be horribly punished for it.

How can anyone have an open-minded discussion with that?

I don’t expect others to agree with me that the rain is a sacred gift or that I am star stuff looking back at the stars. But agree with me or not, it is my Truth. And in fact I believe that these things are “more then true for myself”. However I do not expect it to be your Truth. Only you “see” thru your eyes.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 7:22PM #55
tameless_heart
Posts: 2,084
SG nailed what I meant. UPG. that's all we have.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 8:38PM #56
Spiritdowser
Posts: 48
Way O.T.: Spiritdowser, what does that phrase you have in your signature mean?

Hi SG,
Nice to see you around again.  I've been away for a while. 
Mitakuye Oyasin is a Lakota phrase used sort of like Aloha.  It can mean hello, goodbye or your pants are on fire.  (Just kidding about the last)

It translates roughly to "We are all related."   Meaning that you and I and the rocks and the trees and Mother Theresa and Adolph Hitler are all part of the same whole.  Help one, help all.  Harm one, harm all.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 8:40PM #57
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Spiritdowser wrote:

Way O.T.: Spiritdowser, what does that phrase you have in your signature mean?

Hi SG,
Nice to see you around again.  I've been away for a while. 
Mitakuye Oyasin is a Lakota phrase used sort of like Aloha.  It can mean hello, goodbye or your pants are on fire.  (Just kidding about the last)

It translates roughly to "We are all related."   Meaning that you and I and the rocks and the trees and Mother Theresa and Adolph Hitler are all part of the same whole.  Help one, help all.  Harm one, harm all.





Well, it's awesome!  Thanks!  :D

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 6:32PM #58
Redfrog777
Posts: 2,136
Dave,

“why can't a person believe religion to be more than "true for himself," and if he does, who are we to say he can't?”

Any person can believe that there religion is the greatest and grandest that there is. They have every right to believe that. No one here is saying that they can’t believe that. However if you will notice people are saying “ That it is true for you, does not make it true for me”. 

  Look dude, a friend of mine is color blind. In his eyes the world is black, white and shades of gray. The idea of color never crosses his mind. The idea of a lack of color to me is hard to fathom? Now we can both be looking at the very same object let’s say a building. We may be looking at the same building, but we are not “seeing” the same building. Both points of view are True, but only so from the individual observers point of view.

Now, a lot of people feel like they see in color. But the guy that is colorblind keeps insisting that they are wrong. And are going to be horribly punished for it.

How can anyone have an open-minded discussion with that?

I don’t expect others to agree with me that the rain is a sacred gift or that I am star stuff looking back at the stars. But agree with me or not, it is my Truth. And in fact I believe that these things are “more then true for myself”. However I do not expect it to be your Truth. Only you “see” thru your eyes.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 7:22PM #59
tameless_heart
Posts: 2,084
SG nailed what I meant. UPG. that's all we have.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 8:38PM #60
Spiritdowser
Posts: 48
Way O.T.: Spiritdowser, what does that phrase you have in your signature mean?

Hi SG,
Nice to see you around again.  I've been away for a while. 
Mitakuye Oyasin is a Lakota phrase used sort of like Aloha.  It can mean hello, goodbye or your pants are on fire.  (Just kidding about the last)

It translates roughly to "We are all related."   Meaning that you and I and the rocks and the trees and Mother Theresa and Adolph Hitler are all part of the same whole.  Help one, help all.  Harm one, harm all.
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