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Switch to Forum Live View Why so little relative participation in Multifaith?
7 years ago  ::  Nov 20, 2007 - 9:50PM #101
Mike369
Posts: 181
CH

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]You assume that we have not already experienced the mud and moved beyond the need to play in it anymore. Even as an analogy, it leaves much to be desired.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Actually I'm assuming that we've been so busy reacting to the mud that it hasn't been experienced.  This is normal[/SIZE][/FONT]


[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]By the way, before you accuse anyone else of righteous indignation, you might want to recall back a few short days ago when you were the only one having a fit over a request for someone to not do something.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[/FONT][/SIZE]

[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Quite true. I was referring to the shock of experiencing direct in your face callous genocide denial over here. When people attack not just a friend but his family, heredity, and an entire race which is an attribute of genocide denial, I am not at all ashamed of condemning it. If you can't take it, its of no matter.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I am wondering, do you have a deep-seated need to nit-pick at everyone else's behavior and comments, whether or not they pertain to you, and then analyze those behavior and comments with pseudo-intellectual digressions and mis-applied idioms and philosophical commentaries? Does it make you feel important or something to present yourself as a wise person preaching to those with what you feel is lesser wisdom?[/SIZE][/FONT]

[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]If you have any sincere interest in the possibilities of multifaith, you'll have to get off your high horse and become experientially open to the reality of the human condition. No amount of wishful thinking and false pride will alter its natural results
[/SIZE][/FONT]

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7 years ago  ::  Nov 20, 2007 - 10:27PM #102
gillyflower
Posts: 5,325
Keep telling you - you need to get familiar with a dictionary and the topic at hand otherwise, you know, wanky teen angst.
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 20, 2007 - 11:10PM #103
Chicagoheathen
Posts: 881

Mike369 wrote:

CH



     Actually I'm assuming that we've been so busy reacting to the mud that it hasn't been experienced.  This is normal



You assume incorrectly.


Mike369 wrote:

Quite true. I was referring to the shock of experiencing direct in your face callous genocide denial over here. When people attack not just a friend but his family, heredity, and an entire race which is an attribute of genocide denial, I am not at all ashamed of condemning it. If you can't take it, its of no matter.



Then take that issue to the specific thread where this denial and these attacks took place. Did any of us on this thread have anything to do with it? If so, did it have anything to do with the thread here?

In short, just because you have an issue with some people on Beliefnet, don't start taking it out on other uninvolved people in a completely unrelated thread.



Mike369 wrote:

  If you have any sincere interest in the possibilities of multifaith, you'll have to get off your high horse and become experientially open to the reality of the human condition. No amount of wishful thinking and false pride will alter its natural results



Again, you assume incorrectly. Let me list your incorrect assumptions.
**1. You assume that, because I do not share your worldview, I am not open to multi-faith interaction. This is not the case at all. However, being open to multifaith discussion does NOT mean that I will automatically agree with the person with whom I am having the discussion, especially if that person keeps telling me what I have experienced and what I am open to. Just because I do not conform to your expectations does not mean I am not sincere.
**2. You assume that I am not open to the reality of the human condition. You don't know me, first of all. Secondly, again, just because I do not share your worldview, does not mean I have no experience with the human condition. This is patently ridiculous, in all truth, unless you are insinuating that I am either not human or not alive.
**3.You assume that I am on some high horse. No. I am smply expressing my sincere disgust for your troll-like behavior. Just because you bear the trappings of politesse, it does not make your behavior any less troll-ish. If that's being on a high horse, well, so be it. Pot, meet kettle. The stepstool I need to get on mine is still shorter than the ladder you need to get on yours.
**4. You ascribe to me false pride and wishful thinking. The false pride is a completely false assumption. I have never been proud of myself without some good reason, and those times, I have not been overly proud. In my religion and worldview, pride in self, when it is proper and in the correct moderation, is in fact a good and healthy thing. However, since you do not know me or what I am proud about, you have no justification for saying I have false pride. As far as wishful thinking goes, I limit it strictly to whimsy, like, oh, what I would do if I won the Lotto or how quickly I could get to work if I only had wings. Wishful thinking and flights of fancy are perfectly natural and very healthy, again, as long as it is in moderation and we do not mistake a whimsical wish for a true hope of what might happen. At any rate, your use of 'wishful thinking' does not apply to me.

Honestly, dude, get over yourself. Stop telling people what they are believing and thinking and actually listen for a change.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 20, 2007 - 11:57PM #104
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Mike369 wrote:

The reason for the advice not to cast pearls before swine is not an insult to pigs. If you notice the pig's neck does not allow it to look up. It always look towards the ground. The analogy towards religious truth is that though pearls can be in the mud, the human cannot make use of them without the ability to change psychological inner direction analogous to looking up. Many, for whatever reasons, refuse to do so.

The real truth is in experiencing the mud for what it is and contains rather than imagining the sky.




Actually, I was paraphrasing Tori Amos:

You say that “you’re not bothered
to lie beneath pigs
then go on Laura
here’s a flower for your grave”


It's kind of complicated.

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2007 - 12:50AM #105
Mike369
Posts: 181
CH

[FONT=Century Gothic]You assume incorrectly.

[/FONT]


No I assume correctly. If it were not this way everything would be different.

[FONT=Century Gothic]Then take that issue to the specific thread where this denial and these attacks took place. Did any of us on this thread have anything to do with it? If so, did it have anything to do with the thread here?

In short, just because you have an issue with some people on Beliefnet, don't start taking it out on other uninvolved people in a completely unrelated thread.

[/FONT]


The point at the time is that if genocide and its denial is so easily sanctioned any talk of multifaith understanding beyond a minority is impossible. If we casually ignore the slaughter of another race and sanction its denial, who can understand the complexities of multifaith which requires the humility even this thread reveals as impossible. Some asked for proof and I provided it.

[FONT=Century Gothic] You assume that, because I do not share your worldview, I am not open to multi-faith interaction.

[/FONT]

Your inability for multifaith has nothing to do with my world view. Your inability is related to your inability to rise beyond insult and be open to a larger perspective.

[FONT=Century Gothic]*2. You assume that I am not open to the reality of the human condition.

[/FONT]

You are not the only one. Plato's cave is filled with this ignorance. I struggle to be open to the light and know how difficult it is just to try to be open to the human condition much less be open to it.

[FONT=Century Gothic]**3.You assume that I am on some high horse. No. I am smply expressing my sincere disgust for your troll-like behavior.

[/FONT]

Yes, these are normal indignant reactions to what threatens our vanity and why nothing ever changes.

[FONT=Century Gothic]You ascribe to me false pride and wishful thinking. The false pride is a completely false assumption.

[/FONT]

Virtually all of humanity including me is limited by false pride and vanity. I don't believe you are a rare exception.

[FONT=Century Gothic]We don't have the desire or the guts to impartially "Know Thyself" rather than imagine ourselves so do not experience our collective inner hypocrisy. We prefer instead to be caught up in the most superficial trite self justifications. The result of preserving the status quo is limited to better arguments followed by better platitudes.[/FONT]

Enjoy

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7 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2007 - 1:35AM #106
Chicagoheathen
Posts: 881

Mike369 wrote:

CH




No I assume correctly. If it were not this way everything would be different.



Terribly sorry, let me rephrase. You assume incorrectly when you assume for ME. I will allow others to speak for themselves to correct this as an incorrect assumption as it may or may not refer to them.




Mike369 wrote:

The point at the time is that if genocide and its denial is so easily sanctioned any talk of multifaith understanding beyond a minority is impossible. If we casually ignore the slaughter of another race and sanction its denial, who can understand the complexities of multifaith which requires the humility even this thread reveals as impossible. Some asked for proof and I provided it.



After you brought it up, accusingly, on this thread.



                   

Mike369 wrote:

Your inability for multifaith has nothing to do with my world view. Your inability is related to your inability to rise beyond insult and be open to a larger perspective.



I am open to plenty of perspectives. Just not your narrow-minded, haughty, judgmental one. And I was not being insulting. I honestly wanted to know why you act jike a wanker and a troll. You may not BE one, but you behave like one on this forum. If you would prefer I lie about it, do say so. I won't lie, but I will certainly know where you stand. However, your seeming inability to accept that other world-views might be valid just because they do not mesh with yours does not mean that I am unable to deal with multifaith conversations. Indeed, many can attest, here and RL, that I can generally get along with people of a huge variety of faiths, and am very happy to discuss them in an equitable fashion. That means that, for the duration of the discussion, we take off our hats that our faith is the best/only/sole truth and actually discuss similarities and differences. This sharing and exchange of ideas requires that neither party starts telling the other what they are incapable of, or what that other person's real perspective is.

If you actually want a discussion like that, bring it on. However, I have not yet see you engage in an actual multifaith discussion. Again, pot, meet kettle.



     

Mike369 wrote:

You are not the only one. Plato's cave is filled with this ignorance. I struggle to be open to the light and know how difficult it is just to try to be open to the human condition much less be open to it.



And yet again, you, not knowing me, go ahead and tell me that I am ignorant. And you say that I insult you? That, sir, is a reeking mountain of bovine excrement.



     

Mike369 wrote:

Yes, these are normal indignant reactions to what threatens our vanity and why nothing ever changes.



Says the man who had a several-post hissy fit to a one-line request not directed to him and who brings up his anger about something that happened with other people on another thread and has nothing to do with any of us directly. Here, meet another kettle.

I won't even dignify the ridiculous insinuation that I am vain with any remark other than to say how incredibly stupid a comment it is.

Mike369 wrote:

Virtually all of humanity including me is limited by false pride and vanity. I don't believe you are a rare exception.



You can, of course, believe what you want. However, as you do not know me, it is an unfounded assumption. Your worldview, not mine. You think I'm vain. I think you're a sanctimonious know-it-all who wouldn't know real philosophy if it was dropped, tied to an anvil, on his head. C'est la vie.

Mike369 wrote:

  [FONT=Century Gothic]We don't have the desire or the guts to impartially "Know Thyself" rather than imagine ourselves so do not experience our collective inner hypocrisy. We prefer instead to be caught up in the most superficial trite self justifications. The result of preserving the status quo is limited to better arguments followed by better platitudes.

[/FONT]   Enjoy



Again, as you do not know me, you have no basis to say that I am a hypocrite. I never claimed to be perfect. I am what I am, a flawed, but generally well-meaning human. No more, no less. You can speak for your preferences, your hypocrisy, your self-justification. But sorry, buster, when you start talking about me, you have stepped far from any multifaith discussion and have leaped headfirst into being a judgmental wanker.

You do know the difference between stating your point of view in an open, equitable, multifaith discussion and judging people, right?

I will assume with your cave fetish that you are, actually, smart enough to know the difference. Unfortunately, so far you have demonstrated a deplorable inability to actually put that knowledge into practice.

By the way, just so we can  keep the tiresome comment from coming up, yes, some of the comments in this post are likely insulting, though no less true for that they are insulting. They are, however, based entirely on your observed behavior and your treatment of me in previous posts in this and other threads. If you do not like what I have said, then maybe you might re-think judging me and everyone else in your threads, coming down off of YOUR high horse, and realizing that you're not some bloody sage, and we're not some ignorant fools who need or even necessarily want your message.

--CH

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2007 - 1:46PM #107
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634
Wow, Mike....

You really are something else. 

And I don't really mean that in a positive way.

Maybe it's a combination of the coffee (I stopped drinking it for 3 months) and the cold weather (I always seem to have more energy when it gets below freezing) coupled with your abrasiveness, but you've even got me wanting to dust off my armor and weapons and beat on your ass for a while in a way I haven't done since before I became a mod and then gave it up. 

Now, before we go any farther, let me give you a bit of advice. 

I'm sure that you think that when people get aggravated with you, you feel that it is because you are exposing them to some deep fundamental truth that they just aren't ready to hear yet.  This makes you push harder, and the reactions further convince you are right.  Now I know your not a "Christendom" guy, but your still a Christian, and this is a very typical Christian reaction.  "They're reacting to the message" is so prevalent it might as well be a central teaching.  It's also one of the biggest crocks I've ever heard.  You're going to react a lot different if I am standing next to you, and say in a friendly manner "look at my shiny new gun", than if I am standing across the room and pointing it at you while saying in a deep menacing voice "Look at my shiny new gun". 

People get aggravated with you because you are abrasive.  What you are presenting could be done so in a much more open behavior.  The great part about interfaith discussions is that they involve discussion and listening.  You do not seem to be here to discuss, but to preach.  Worst of all, your preaching about something that most of us not only find to be disgusting view of the world, but also something that we have discovered through our own introspection and studies to be patently wrong.  Don't get me wrong, I can see how someone could superficially look at the world and themselves and see what you claim too, but to actually get your head out of books that tell you what other people think that you should find and look for yourself is true introspection.  My fellows here are more than welcome to correct me if I am wrong, but many of us are converts to a drastically different faith than our upbringing, and at least a few of us have been involved in multiple faiths along the way.  This does not happen because we attempt to fit ourselves to a mold of what others tell us, but because we observe for ourselves and formulate our beliefs around the understanding of what we see. 

I know that you think you are drastically different from the "Christendom" you disdain so much.  Let me tell you, I likely disdain it just as much if not more than you do, and likely for very similar reasons.  I know Sobeit and I could agree on at least that much, and you seem to be a carbon copy of him.  Unfortunately, the changes you have made have not been improvements.  You display similar attitudes, and as such get similar responses to the Evangelical trolls. 

Now, grow up, play nice, discuss, or reap the whirlwind  :cool:.

all
Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2007 - 1:09PM #108
Mike369
Posts: 181
CH

[FONT=Century Gothic]Terribly sorry, let me rephrase. You assume incorrectly when you assume for ME. I will allow others to speak for themselves to correct this as an incorrect assumption as it may or may not refer to them.

[/FONT]

Phrase in in whatever way you like but the bottom line is what is known in all the great traditions and even known in modern psychology which is our tendency to react to preconceptions of an experience rather than be open to the experience.

[FONT=Century Gothic]After you brought it up, accusingly, on this thread.

[/FONT]


Yes, and it won't be resolved until next April. However the bottom line is that our acceptance of genocide denial shows the impossibility of any meaningful multifaith respect.

[FONT=Century Gothic]I am open to plenty of perspectives. Just not your narrow-minded, haughty, judgmental one.

[/FONT]

You may be open to many perspectives but not necessarily a higher perspective. Your meaningless accusations and judgmental attitude surely doesn't suggest having been open to a higher perspective.

[FONT=Century Gothic]And I was not being insulting. I honestly wanted to know why you act jike a wanker and a troll.

[/FONT]

Trying to insult me is not the point. The point is that your feeling personally insulted and keeping you attached to the superficial deprives you of a higher perspective.

[FONT=Century Gothic]However, your seeming inability to accept that other world-views might be valid just because they do not mesh with yours does not mean that I am unable to deal with multifaith conversations.

[/FONT]

You know that my world view divides religion into the exoteric, esoteric, and transcendent levels. We are sharing at the outer or exoteric level in which there are only partial truths and dreams. Valid does not mean true. There are many valid arguments that lead to partial truths. If I were to deny these partial truths I would be denying the reality of the exoteric level.

[FONT=Century Gothic]Indeed, many can attest, here and RL, that I can generally get along with people of a huge variety of faiths, and am very happy to discuss them in an equitable fashion.

[/FONT]

Getting along is fine. The real value of multifath is understanding why we don't; why we get along and then cannot get along. You would prefer to define an "equitable" way to discuss and being that it is subjective, all you will do is deny the truth and ridicule it. This may be your way but nothing is gained in this way. You have to be open to experience the truth rather than inflict some subjective notion of an equitable fashion for being open to reason.

[FONT=Century Gothic]If you actually want a discussion like that, bring it on. However, I have not yet see you engage in an actual multifaith discussion. Again, pot, meet kettle.

[/FONT]

When you begin to realize what your resistance is to becoming open to differences, it will be a good start.

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7 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2007 - 2:24PM #109
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634
..........
Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2007 - 2:45PM #110
Mike369
Posts: 181
All

People get aggravated with you because you are abrasive. What you are presenting could be done so in a much more open behavior. The great part about interfaith discussions is that they involve discussion and listening. You do not seem to be here to discuss, but to preach. Worst of all, your preaching about something that most of us not only find to be disgusting view of the world, but also something that we have discovered through our own introspection and studies to be patently wrong. Don't get me wrong, I can see how someone could superficially look at the world and themselves and see what you claim too, but to actually get your head out of books that tell you what other people think that you should find and look for yourself is true introspection. My fellows here are more than welcome to correct me if I am wrong, but many of us are converts to a drastically different faith than our upbringing, and at least a few of us have been involved in multiple faiths along the way. This does not happen because we attempt to fit ourselves to a mold of what others tell us, but because we observe for ourselves and formulate our beliefs around the understanding of what we see.


This is it in a nutshell. People are here with established opinions gradually developed from reactions to bad former experiences. it is understandable but what good is it just to blindly agree?

I haven't preached anything. I've suggested that in order for multifaith to be more then just normal socializing it is necessary to see that the friction is the fault of everyone. It has become natural to our human nature.

You find what I've verified and come to believe as "disgusting." Nothing can be built on this. How can you or anyone else respect what is defined as disgusting? You want to change it and ridicule it rather then be open to it. This is why the board cannot build. Who wants to discuss anything in an environment where their views have been determined as "disgusting."The ironic thing is that I don't find the views of others disgusting. They are what they are.

I misunderstood the definition of multfaith here. I see it is defined as a vehicle for self justification of one point of view rather than the mutual acceptance that we all need to develop our ability to understand as is possible for a human being.


Now, grow up, play nice, discuss, or reap the whirlwind :cool:

.

Yes, this is what Turkey told the U.S. concerning recognition of the Armenian genocide. We decided to play nice and ignore reality at the expense of the Armenian people and the moral good. This may be your way but not mine.

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