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2 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2015 - 5:41PM #1
McAtheist
Posts: 9,224
Young earth creationism requires that all the processes that shaped the universe, the earth and life on earth happened in less than 10,000 years.

However, many suites of evidence from various branches of science strongly contradict that assumption: different forms of radiocarbon dating, geologic structures ranging from shield volcanoes to massive sedimentary deposits to vast volcanic floods like the Siberian traps,  trackable tectonic plate movement,  varve layers, annual algae blooms on Lake Suigetsu, glacial rebound, the absence of naturally occurring nuclides with a half-life less than 80 million years, ice core samples, the history of various civilizations that exist before and during and after Noah's imaginary flood, ice cores, mile-deep permafrost, etc.

The mainstream model of the history of the earth creates a self-consistent explanation for all these various clocks in way that is also consistent with what we know about how the processes that created them work.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />OTOH, YECism has to compress everything into a maximum of 10K years or less --- rubion-strontium decay with a half-life of 50 billion years smoooshed in alongside radiocarbon decay with a half-life of 5730 years, glacial advance/retreat and ongoing rebound, the formation and subsequent erosion of the Hawaiian shield islands with apparent ages that differ by millions of years, etc.

My question to the YEC team is this: what set of circumstances could affect ALL of these natural clocks in such a way to make them produce incorrect ages and yet also keep them in the perfect ratios to present such a consistent picture for so many different ways of measuring?

I'm not looking for the equivalent of "god moves in mysterious ways" here --- waving your hands and saying "the flood!" doesn't constitute an answer.  I'm looking for rational, evidence-based answers based on physical laws, physical limits and physical processes.

After all, if your answer is best summed up as "Magic!" then your answer has no place in a science classroom, does it?
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2015 - 1:53AM #2
iamachildofhis
Posts: 11,927

Oct 27, 2015 -- 5:41PM, McAtheist wrote:



McAtheist: Young earth creationism requires that all the processes that shaped the universe, the earth and life on earth happened in less than 10,000 years.



iama:  Origins of Life / Origins of all things = The Creation Week.

McAtheist: However, many suites of evidence from various branches of science strongly contradict that assumption: different forms of radiocarbon dating, geologic structures ranging from shield volcanoes to massive sedimentary deposits to vast volcanic floods like the Siberian traps,  trackable tectonic plate movement,  varve layers, annual algae blooms on Lake Suigetsu, glacial rebound, the absence of naturally occurring nuclides with a half-life less than 80 million years, ice core samples, the history of various civilizations that exist before and during and after Noah's imaginary flood, ice cores, mile-deep permafrost, etc.



iama:  Origin of Geology; Origin of Biology; Origin of Chemistry; Origin of Botany; Origin of all things.....  "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." 


Radiocarbon dating is used for 50,000 year old and less organic life.  Dinosaur tissue contains 14C and is, therefore, younger than 50,000 years. 


The Flood happened according to Genesis.  All geologic structures, currently, existing are the result of that 371 day catastrophic event.  Flood Geology.


The ONE Ice Age occurred post-The Flood.  Evidences moraines, Missoula  Flood / Scablands erosion, Lakes, rivers with wide valleys, etc.


"Opening up of the great fountains of the deep," re: volcanos, lava beds, sea mounts, etc.


"Varve layers" have been evidenced in labs as occurring in fast flowing water.


The Earth is slated to exist for a long time, according to The Bible.  We know that the igneous rocks are where the radioisotopes originate.  Therefore, the decaying of these radioisotope materials could be involved with the heat generation in the core of the Earth??? Radioisotope decay rates do not = age of anything!


Ice core samples containing layers of ice are assumed to indicate age by counting different layer colors.  We have no way of knowing how many different layers represent a year.


The incorrect / false dating by radioisotopes gives faulty ages.  The dating of sedimentary layers by fossils and fossils by sedimentary layers is circular reasoning, giving historical ages which are in error - too old.

McAtheist: The mainstream model of the history of the earth creates a self-consistent explanation for all these various clocks in way that is also consistent with what we know about how the processes that created them work.



iama:  If your presuppositions are in error re: History, your paradigm is, also, going to be in error.



..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />OTOH,


McAtheist; YECism has to compress everything into a maximum of 10K years or less --- rubion-strontium decay with a half-life of 50 billion years smoooshed in alongside radiocarbon decay with a half-life of 5730 years, glacial advance/retreat and ongoing rebound, the formation and subsequent erosion of the Hawaiian shield islands with apparent ages that differ by millions of years, etc.



iama:  Again, radioisotope half-lives do not indicate AGE OF ANYTHING!


Accepting The Flood vs long-ages is a much more evidence-based process of determining the age of all things.  The Flood ravages of the Earth is what causes you to consider that the Earth appears to be very old.  The Earth isn't long-ages old; The Flood's ravages vs the uniformitarian processes is where science needs to concentrate Geology research.


The Northern Seamounts are more warn down than are the Southern Seamounts, like Hawaii.  The beginning of The Flood year worked on those Northern-most Seamounts.  Many / most of them are, now, beneath the surface of the ocean.  The "millions of years" are derived, again, from the bogus radiometric assumptions-dating.

McAtheist; My question to the YEC team is this: what set of circumstances could affect ALL of these natural clocks in such a way to make them produce incorrect ages and yet also keep them in the perfect ratios to present such a consistent picture for so many different ways of measuring?



iama:  The Flood year!  That's why it is so vigorously, refuted by the evolutionists.


McAtheist: I'm not looking for the equivalent of "god moves in mysterious ways" here --- waving your hands and saying "the flood!" doesn't constitute an answer.  I'm looking for rational, evidence-based answers based on physical laws, physical limits and physical processes.

After all, if your answer is best summed up as "Magic!" then your answer has no place in a science classroom, does it?



iama:  The Flood is NOT A NATURAL EVENT! 


Gen 6:17
    
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.


The HISTORICAL TRUTH is that The Flood year occurred!


Yahweh was responsible for The Flood's parameters.


Science is NOT TRUTH.


The Bible is TRUTH.


The educated human needs to understand that he / she exists, because YAHWEH exists and that He is our Creator-God.


The Bible is NOT the enemy of the educated human.  The uneducated human, though he / she be highly educated in post-secondary institutions to the highest level, is lacking in knowledge and understanding regarding TRUTH HISTORY of the Universe / the Earth and "all that in them is."


Science is a fool that doesn't take into accounting the Biblical History regarding all that exists.

http://creation.com/creation-tv?fileID=N0RDR6y_QBc

The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
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"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
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Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2015 - 7:46AM #3
Midutch
Posts: 5,975

So, every shred of scientific research and empirical evidence demonstrates that the Earth is much older than 6000 years, and iamachildofhis's answer is basically ... "goddidit ... with magic".

"creationism" ... 2000+ years worth of ABYSMAL FAILURE ... and proud of it.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2015 - 8:00AM #4
GodsGarden
Posts: 186


iama:  If your presuppositions are in error re: History, your paradigm is, also, going to be in error.



GG:  Please stand in front of a mirror and say this over and over.  The treatment of Genesis as a science and history book is just wrong.  Thus, your presuppositions are in error.


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2 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2015 - 8:59AM #5
Midutch
Posts: 5,975

Oct 28, 2015 -- 1:53AM, iamachildofhis wrote:


Oct 27, 2015 -- 5:41PM, McAtheist wrote:



McAtheist: Young earth creationism requires that all the processes that shaped the universe, the earth and life on earth happened in less than 10,000 years.



iama:  Origins of Life / Origins of all things = The Creation Week.


For which you have NO, repeat, NO evidence.

McAtheist: However, many suites of evidence from various branches of science strongly contradict that assumption: different forms of radiocarbon dating, geologic structures ranging from shield volcanoes to massive sedimentary deposits to vast volcanic floods like the Siberian traps,  trackable tectonic plate movement,  varve layers, annual algae blooms on Lake Suigetsu, glacial rebound, the absence of naturally occurring nuclides with a half-life less than 80 million years, ice core samples, the history of various civilizations that exist before and during and after Noah's imaginary flood, ice cores, mile-deep permafrost, etc.



iama:  Origin of Geology; Origin of Biology; Origin of Chemistry; Origin of Botany; Origin of all things.....  "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." 


Radiocarbon dating is used for 50,000 year old and less organic life.  Dinosaur tissue contains 14C and is, therefore, younger than 50,000 years.


This is, of course, a lie.


There are other radiometric dating techniques which date materials out to billions of years. That you YECs always fall back on this wilfully told falsehood of an argument merely demonstrates how dishonet you are.


The Flood happened according to Genesis. All geologic structures, currently, existing are the result of that 371 day catastrophic event.  Flood Geology.


For which you have NO, repeat, NO evidence.


The ONE Ice Age occurred post-The Flood.  Evidences moraines, Missoula  Flood / Scablands erosion, Lakes, rivers with wide valleys, etc.


EVERY SHRED of REAL scientific research and empirical evidence says different.


"Opening up of the great fountains of the deep," re: volcanos, lava beds, sea mounts, etc.


"Varve layers" have been evidenced in labs as occurring in fast flowing water.


The Earth is slated to exist for a long time, according to The Bible.  We know that the igneous rocks are where the radioisotopes originate.  Therefore, the decaying of these radioisotope materials could be involved with the heat generation in the core of the Earth??? Radioisotope decay rates do not = age of anything!


This is, of course, another lie. Just because YOU don't understand or accept the science does not mean it is incorrect or invalid.


Ice core samples containing layers of ice are assumed to indicate age by counting different layer colors.  We have no way of knowing how many different layers represent a year.


This is, of course, a lie. Just because YOU don't understand or accept the science does not mean it is incorrect or invalid.


The incorrect / false dating by radioisotopes gives faulty ages.  The dating of sedimentary layers by fossils and fossils by sedimentary layers is circular reasoning, giving historical ages which are in error - too old.

McAtheist: The mainstream model of the history of the earth creates a self-consistent explanation for all these various clocks in way that is also consistent with what we know about how the processes that created them work.



iama:  If your presuppositions are in error re: History, your paradigm is, also, going to be in error.



..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />OTOH,


McAtheist; YECism has to compress everything into a maximum of 10K years or less --- rubion-strontium decay with a half-life of 50 billion years smoooshed in alongside radiocarbon decay with a half-life of 5730 years, glacial advance/retreat and ongoing rebound, the formation and subsequent erosion of the Hawaiian shield islands with apparent ages that differ by millions of years, etc.



iama:  Again, radioisotope half-lives do not indicate AGE OF ANYTHING!


This is, of course, another lie. Just because YOU don't understand or accept the science does not mean it is incorrect or invalid.


Accepting The Flood vs long-ages is a much more evidence-based process of determining the age of all things.  The Flood ravages of the Earth is what causes you to consider that the Earth appears to be very old.  The Earth isn't long-ages old; The Flood's ravages vs the uniformitarian processes is where science needs to concentrate Geology research.


The Northern Seamounts are more warn down than are the Southern Seamounts, like Hawaii.  The beginning of The Flood year worked on those Northern-most Seamounts.  Many / most of them are, now, beneath the surface of the ocean.  The "millions of years" are derived, again, from the bogus radiometric assumptions-dating.


You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?


If the Hawaiian/Emperor seamounts were all created during "the flood year" and then worn down by "the flood" why wouldn't they all look exactly alike? How did "the flood" know to wear down the seamounts differently from most worn down in the far north to not worn down at all in the far south to make it look like they each were created millions of years apart and subject to VASTLY different amounts of erosion?


Further, you DO know that the Hawaiian/Emperor seamount chain is almost 5000 miles long, right? You DO also know HOW they were created, right? How did "the flood" create all of these volcanos so fast off of the one hotspot that created them all?


www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/mdyar/ast223/e...


There are 81 located seamounts in the illustration above. That means that "the flood" would have created one seamount every 3.9 days and that the tectonic plate would have been traveling at over 2.5 miles per hour over that hotspot. How is that possible?

McAtheist; My question to the YEC team is this: what set of circumstances could affect ALL of these natural clocks in such a way to make them produce incorrect ages and yet also keep them in the perfect ratios to present such a consistent picture for so many different ways of measuring?



iama:  The Flood year!  That's why it is so vigorously, refuted by the evolutionists.


It is refuted and invalidated because there isn't a shred of evidence for it. The ONLY "evidence" you have is that which your delusional imaginations make up.


McAtheist: I'm not looking for the equivalent of "god moves in mysterious ways" here --- waving your hands and saying "the flood!" doesn't constitute an answer.  I'm looking for rational, evidence-based answers based on physical laws, physical limits and physical processes.

After all, if your answer is best summed up as "Magic!" then your answer has no place in a science classroom, does it?



iama:  The Flood is NOT A NATURAL EVENT! 


Gen 6:17
    
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.


The HISTORICAL TRUTH is that The Flood year occurred!


This is, of course, a lie. There is NO, repeat, NO historical record for "da fluud".


Yahweh was responsible for The Flood's parameters.


Science is NOT TRUTH.


The Bible is TRUTH.


Given how much you YECs lie, it's a wonder that you have the temerity and gall to say such an outrageous thing.


The educated human needs to understand that he / she exists, because YAHWEH exists and that He is our Creator-God.


The Bible is NOT the enemy of the educated human.  The uneducated human, though he / she be highly educated in post-secondary institutions to the highest level, is lacking in knowledge and understanding regarding TRUTH HISTORY of the Universe / the Earth and "all that in them is."


Science is a fool that doesn't take into accounting the Biblical History regarding all that exists.


Science doesn't take "biblical history" into account where geology, astronomy, biology, paleontology, human evolution, anthropology, actual human history, etc. is concerned because it doesn't exist. What you call "biblical history" is actually self deluding bronze age "literal and inerrant" goat herder fairy tales.





"creationism" ... 2000+ years worth of ABYSMAL FAILURE ... and proud of it.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2015 - 10:35AM #6
McAtheist
Posts: 9,224

iam,


Reiterating that you don't accept science doesn't answer the question to which this thread is devoted: if all the myriad ways of determining the age of the universe and the earth are wrong, why do these very disparate methods produce consistent results?


The converging lines of of evidence for the ages of the Hawaiin islands illustrate this fundamental problem with YECism very well.  Different forms of radiometric dating yield a set of ages for the islands.  The rate at which shield volcanoes are formed yields a set of ages for the islands.  The observed levels of erosion yield a set of ages for the islands.  The observed rate of movement of the Pacific Plate over the hot spot yields a set of ages for the islands.  And all those different sets of ages agree.


OTOH, there is no physical evidence whatsoever that the Hawaiian islands formed in the 4500 years since your imaginary flood --- none.   There is no physical evidence whatsoever that Kauai and the Big Island are geologically exactly the same age ---- none.


So the question that you need to answer, the problem that you need to solve is what caused all these different ways of measuring the age of the islands to yield the same results. 


Don't waste our time with another rant against modern science --- explain scientifically why this phenomenon of different methods of dating producing consistent results exists at all.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2015 - 11:55AM #7
Midutch
Posts: 5,975

Just a little more about the time compression problem the YECs have.


The big island of Hawaii is a total of 33,000+ feet high when measured from it's base on the sea floor. That means that (since the YEC timeline says that it was created in 3.9 days somewhere in the past, see earlier post) the big island of Hawaii was adding around 8,400 feet of elevation every day while it was being created by "the flood".

"creationism" ... 2000+ years worth of ABYSMAL FAILURE ... and proud of it.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2015 - 12:15PM #8
Midutch
Posts: 5,975

Correction to my earlier post: the Emperor/Hawaii seamount chain is almost 5000 miles long. That means that the Pacific tectonic plate would have been moving about 0.66 miles per hour (not 2.9 mph) over the hotspot in the 314 days it took for the water to dry up during Noah's flood.


www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ21...


Still much faster than the observed movement of around 8.1 centimeters per year.

"creationism" ... 2000+ years worth of ABYSMAL FAILURE ... and proud of it.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2015 - 1:42PM #9
McAtheist
Posts: 9,224

Of course, there is still a major problem with the hot spot in that YEC "model",  Midutch:  at the speeds necessary to move the Pacific Plate across the hot spot to create the whole sea mount chain, there is no way enough material was deposited at any site long enough to create the islands


And there is really really no way the rapid movement of the plate could create shield volcanoes, which are formed by thousands and thousands of fluid eruptions over long periods of time.


The physics of shield volcano creation renders the YEC nonsense impossible, whether the islands were created in the imaginary flood year or the 3500 years that followed. 


This is just one more set of data that YECs blatantly ignore.  One more time, why are we supposed to pretend this crap is science?


Cool

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2015 - 1:49PM #10
Midutch
Posts: 5,975

Oct 28, 2015 -- 1:42PM, McAtheist wrote:


Of course, there is still a major problem with the hot spot in that YEC "model",  Midutch:  at the speeds necessary to move the Pacific Plate across the hot spot to create the whole sea mount chain, there is no way enough material was deposited at any site long enough to create the islands


And there is really really no way the rapid movement of the plate could create shield volcanoes, which are formed by thousands and thousands of fluid eruptions over long periods of time.


The physics of shield volcano creation renders the YEC nonsense impossible, whether the islands were created in the imaginary flood year or the 3500 years that followed. 


This is just one more set of data that YECs blatantly ignore.  One more time, why are we supposed to pretend this crap is science?




And iamachildofhis will STILL say "goddidit ... with magic".


It helps with that whole "thinking" thingy YECs find so difficult.

"creationism" ... 2000+ years worth of ABYSMAL FAILURE ... and proud of it.
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