Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 1 of 7  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Miracles make people stupid
5 years ago  ::  May 17, 2013 - 8:03PM #1
rsielin
Posts: 4,997

Miracles make people stupid.


The presence of miracles in your worldview will always stunt innovative and creative thinking skills, because why go through all the work to understand anything if was all just magic? 


Humans are capable of accomplishing amazing, near-miracle things because we've become really, really good at exploiting the physics of our world around us. The process of getting there takes time and experimentation, failure and perseverance. And every success is related to careful understanding of how the overall process works, and the fundamental rules of the physical world.


With magic, while there seems to be Biblical study involved, the results are never really directly relatable to the actions. With a magical process, there's no reason for anything like a scientific method to develop, and no need for the cycle of observation, experimentation, examination, or testing of our understanding.


Think about the differences in learning to make a simple flashlight in a 9th grade science class. You would learn about the chemical reactions of batteries, the fundamentals of electromagnetism, of the conductivity of wires, of the resistance of a light bulb filament and how it glows when current runs through it, and then finally you get to take some wire, a little flashlight bulb, and a D cell and get a feeble little light. Magic gets you light-made-in-transit effortlessly and instantaneously. Light, yes; understanding, no. No brains required.


Humans are great at exploiting the loopholes of the natural world to make lives better and more interesting, but as soon as you get that crutch of magic all that curiosity and innovation goes out the window. Natural world miracles make us stupid. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  May 17, 2013 - 8:17PM #2
Blü
Posts: 26,191

Impossible to disagree.


Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  May 19, 2013 - 12:04AM #3
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

A "Miracle" ISN'T "Magic" (or "Magick," either ...)


A "Miracle" is an unexpected undeserved Instance (Experience) of the Power and Mercy and Grace of "God" ...


It may be a "Healing" ... It may be a Phone Call or an Embrace or a Kind Word ... It may be an apparently Chance Encounter with a Stranger (Who turns out to have been an Angel-Messenger from Heaven) ...


The "Miracles" I have received haven't made ME "stupid" ... They have left me grateful and inspired and more Realistic about "God," Life, The Universe and Everything ...



May 17, 2013 -- 8:03PM, rsielin wrote:


Miracles make people stupid.


The presence of miracles in your worldview will always stunt innovative and creative thinking skills, because why go through all the work to understand anything if was all just magic? 


Humans are capable of accomplishing amazing, near-miracle things because we've become really, really good at exploiting the physics of our world around us. The process of getting there takes time and experimentation, failure and perseverance. And every success is related to careful understanding of how the overall process works, and the fundamental rules of the physical world.


With magic, while there seems to be Biblical study involved, the results are never really directly relatable to the actions. With a magical process, there's no reason for anything like a scientific method to develop, and no need for the cycle of observation, experimentation, examination, or testing of our understanding.


Think about the differences in learning to make a simple flashlight in a 9th grade science class. You would learn about the chemical reactions of batteries, the fundamentals of electromagnetism, of the conductivity of wires, of the resistance of a light bulb filament and how it glows when current runs through it, and then finally you get to take some wire, a little flashlight bulb, and a D cell and get a feeble little light. Magic gets you light-made-in-transit effortlessly and instantaneously. Light, yes; understanding, no. No brains required.


Humans are great at exploiting the loopholes of the natural world to make lives better and more interesting, but as soon as you get that crutch of magic all that curiosity and innovation goes out the window. Natural world miracles make us stupid. 





Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  May 19, 2013 - 12:45AM #4
steven_guy
Posts: 11,879

May 17, 2013 -- 8:03PM, rsielin wrote:


Miracles make people stupid.


The presence of miracles in your worldview will always stunt innovative and creative thinking skills, because why go through all the work to understand anything if was all just magic? 


Humans are capable of accomplishing amazing, near-miracle things because we've become really, really good at exploiting the physics of our world around us. The process of getting there takes time and experimentation, failure and perseverance. And every success is related to careful understanding of how the overall process works, and the fundamental rules of the physical world.


With magic, while there seems to be Biblical study involved, the results are never really directly relatable to the actions. With a magical process, there's no reason for anything like a scientific method to develop, and no need for the cycle of observation, experimentation, examination, or testing of our understanding.


Think about the differences in learning to make a simple flashlight in a 9th grade science class. You would learn about the chemical reactions of batteries, the fundamentals of electromagnetism, of the conductivity of wires, of the resistance of a light bulb filament and how it glows when current runs through it, and then finally you get to take some wire, a little flashlight bulb, and a D cell and get a feeble little light. Magic gets you light-made-in-transit effortlessly and instantaneously. Light, yes; understanding, no. No brains required.


Humans are great at exploiting the loopholes of the natural world to make lives better and more interesting, but as soon as you get that crutch of magic all that curiosity and innovation goes out the window. Natural world miracles make us stupid. 




No argument from me. We've seen numerous examples here and elsewhere.

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  May 19, 2013 - 3:10AM #5
Blü
Posts: 26,191

A "Miracle" ISN'T "Magic" (or "Magick," either ...)


Miracle: A marvellous event exceeding the known powers of nature and therefore supposed to be due to the special intervention of the Deity or of some supernatural agency (Shorter Oxford)


Miracle: An event that is contrary to the established laws of nature and attributed to a supernatural cause (Collins)


So we're talking about altering reality just by act of will and independently of the rules of physics - which is the definition of magic.


'Miracle' is just a polite term for magic attributed to a god.




Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  May 19, 2013 - 7:23AM #6
rsielin
Posts: 4,997

May 19, 2013 -- 12:04AM, teilhard wrote:

A "Miracle" is an unexpected undeserved Instance (Experience) of the Power and Mercy and Grace of "God" ...


I'm not questioning all those unexpected fortuitous one-in-a-million-billion chance events that do not violate natural law but nevertheless one attributes a life changing or at least life lifting result. Those aren't miracles per se in my book but I can understand how one could stretch their definition of miracle to include those, particularly if it comes at exceptionally difficult or needy time. Certainly they are not magic. 


I’m speaking of those “miracles” that are conjured up to explain our natural world; that suspend all logic, understanding and accumulated knowledge such as the age of the cosmos, the appearance of rainbows, the rise of mountains, the Grand Canyon, the diversity of Earth’s biomass, etc.; those genuine “poof" and "magic trick” My-God-is-bigger-than-your-God "miracles". Those are the “miracles” that leave one stupid. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  May 19, 2013 - 10:00AM #7
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

Yes ...


We understand the Nature of "Miracle" differently ...


May 19, 2013 -- 7:23AM, rsielin wrote:


May 19, 2013 -- 12:04AM, teilhard wrote:

A "Miracle" is an unexpected undeserved Instance (Experience) of the Power and Mercy and Grace of "God" ...


I'm not questioning all those unexpected fortuitous one-in-a-million-billion chance events that do not violate natural law but nevertheless one attributes a life changing or at least life lifting result. Those aren't miracles per se in my book but I can understand how one could stretch their definition of miracle to include those, particularly if it comes at exceptionally difficult or needy time. Certainly they are not magic. 


I’m speaking of those “miracles” that are conjured up to explain our natural world; that suspend all logic, understanding and accumulated knowledge such as the age of the cosmos, the appearance of rainbows, the rise of mountains, the Grand Canyon, the diversity of Earth’s biomass, etc.; those genuine “poof" and "magic trick” My-God-is-bigger-than-your-God "miracles". Those are the “miracles” that leave one stupid. 





Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  May 19, 2013 - 10:05AM #8
Midutch
Posts: 5,975

May 19, 2013 -- 12:04AM, teilhard wrote:

... It may be an apparently Chance Encounter with a Stranger (Who turns out to have been an Angel-Messenger from Heaven) ...


I'm curious as to how these "angel-messengers from heaven" choose who to help.


Why, if they are so powerful, do they help so miniscule few?


Why are there MILLIONS of sick and dying children all around the world who do NOT receive even just a kind word from these "angel-messengers from heaven"?


Why are there so many desperate prayers for rescue and comfort NOT answered by these "angel-messengers from heaven"?


Why did you, a wealthy citizen [relatively speaking] of the wealthiest nation on Earth, get a special visit from one of these "angel-messengers from heaven" about what was probably a relatively UN-important issue, but starving children in Somalia get ignored?


Are the starving children in Somalia less WORTHY than you?


Are they the wrong religion?


Are they unable to donate enough money to the "angel-messengers from heaven" Religious Action Committee?


Why you and not them?


"creationism" ... 2000+ years worth of ABYSMAL FAILURE ... and proud of it.
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  May 19, 2013 - 10:11AM #9
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

I don't know ...


But we certainly do "live and move and have our being" in a complicated World, don't we ... ??? Daily Life and the Agonies of History surely decisively show that we HUMANS are not *in*charge* ... WE do NOT get to *call*the*Shots* ...



May 19, 2013 -- 10:05AM, Midutch wrote:


May 19, 2013 -- 12:04AM, teilhard wrote:

... It may be an apparently Chance Encounter with a Stranger (Who turns out to have been an Angel-Messenger from Heaven) ...


I'm curious as to how these "angel-messengers from heaven" choose who to help.


Why, if they are so powerful, do they help so miniscule few?


Why are there MILLIONS of sick and dying children all around the world who do NOT receive even just a kind word from these "angel-messengers from heaven"?


Why are there so many desperate prayers for rescue and comfort NOT answered by these "angel-messengers from heaven"?


Why did you, a wealthy citizen [relatively speaking] of the wealthiest nation on Earth, get a special visit from one of these "angel-messengers from heaven" about what was probably a relatively UN-important issue, but starving children in Somalia get ignored?


Are the starving children in Somalia less WORTHY than you?


Are they the wrong religion?


Are they unable to donate enough money to the "angel-messengers from heaven" Religious Action Committee?


Why you and not them?






Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  May 19, 2013 - 11:05AM #10
MMarcoe
Posts: 20,907

May 19, 2013 -- 12:04AM, teilhard wrote:


A "Miracle" ISN'T "Magic" (or "Magick," either ...)


A "Miracle" is an unexpected undeserved Instance (Experience) of the Power and Mercy and Grace of "God" ...


It may be a "Healing" ... It may be a Phone Call or an Embrace or a Kind Word ... It may be an apparently Chance Encounter with a Stranger (Who turns out to have been an Angel-Messenger from Heaven) ...





But it's undeserved? Then why would it occur? Surely it must be deserved.


All this schlock about good things being undeserved. What awful theology.


 

1. Extremists think that thinking means agreeing with them.
2. There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.
3. God is the original nothingness of the universe.
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 7  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook