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Switch to Forum Live View Consciousness is an individual product of a biological organism?
2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 8:55AM #21
Faustus5
Posts: 2,022

May 17, 2012 -- 4:20PM, newchurchguy wrote:


F5,


as the years go by - is your Dan Dennett action figure showing a little wear?



As the years go by, are you ever going to grow up?

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 9:00AM #22
Faustus5
Posts: 2,022

May 18, 2012 -- 8:28AM, newchurchguy wrote:

Science, in the last 60 years, is no longer material based.  It is empirical evidence (as data) based and there is data about non-material phenonmena such as evidenced by logical coding and decoding processes.


Provide a citation from peer reviewed science in which there is any example of logical coding or decoding involving properties or processes that do not involve matter or energy. Good luck with that!


May 18, 2012 -- 8:28AM, newchurchguy wrote:

Tononi's intergrated information - likewise will not qualify for the list of physical units of measure.


Provide a citation from Tononi's actual work in which he provides a specific measure of information that is not measuring some property of matter or energy. Good luck with that!

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 2:41PM #23
newchurchguy
Posts: 3,572

There is a big difference between your view of "magic matter" and that of a system having a physical level and a logical level - where some of the "space" includes non-material structures such as logic gates.  This is what is in the science literature and what I am reporting.  Your statement that a physical substrate has to be "involved" does not address the subject other than a metaphysical side comment.


 


Just like you explaining how the measurement problem “involved” a physical disturbance of the quantum state -- years after the delayed choice experiment was done and repeated at several  labs.


A. Sloman and L. Floridi head the list of speakers at the big event in honor of Turing this summer


The more abstract the influence the more obscure the relationship with physical structure and processes


Human scientists and engineers have discovered the benefits of using more and more powerful virtual machines whose powers and properties are increasingly remote from those of the underlying physical machinery.


There are several reasons to suspect that similar benefits from use of virtual machinery were “discovered” much earlier by biological evolution.


www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/coga...


• In that case it may be practically impossible to discover what the machinery is – either bottom-up, by studying the chemical and neurophysical details in the hope of finding their functional powers, or outward-in by seeking correlations between physically detectable internal states and processes and externally observable behaviours in different contexts.


• If so, such bottom-up and outward-in research strategies need to be combined with creative (informed) searching (top-down) in abstract design spaces. – A. Sloman




May 18, 2012 -- 9:00AM, Faustus5 wrote:


May 18, 2012 -- 8:28AM, newchurchguy wrote:

Science, in the last 60 years, is no longer material based.  It is empirical evidence (as data) based and there is data about non-material phenonmena such as evidenced by logical coding and decoding processes.


Provide a citation from peer reviewed science in which there is any example of logical coding or decoding involving properties or processes that do not involve matter or energy. Good luck with that!


May 18, 2012 -- 8:28AM, newchurchguy wrote:

Tononi's intergrated information - likewise will not qualify for the list of physical units of measure.


Provide a citation from Tononi's actual work in which he provides a specific measure of information that is not measuring some property of matter or energy. Good luck with that!





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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 3:31PM #24
Faustus5
Posts: 2,022

May 18, 2012 -- 2:41PM, newchurchguy wrote:

There is a big difference between your view of "magic matter" and that of a system having a physical level and a logical level - where some of the "space" includes non-material structures such as logic gates.


Please provide a citation from a peer reviewed scientific source which documents a logic gate existing independently of matter or energy. Because if you think your last post did anything of the sort, you are once again deluding yourself.


May 18, 2012 -- 2:41PM, newchurchguy wrote:

This is what is in the science literature and what I am reporting.


You don't "report" anything. You make up nonsense that only you believe and then you cite sources which don't have anything to do with what you actually wrote.


May 18, 2012 -- 2:41PM, newchurchguy wrote:

Just like you explaining how the measurement problem “involved” a physical disturbance of the quantum state -- years after the delayed choice experiment was done and repeated at several  labs.


This may come as news to you, but every experiment in quantum physics involves a physical system whose settings determine the outcome.

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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 9:18AM #25
newchurchguy
Posts: 3,572

May 18, 2012 -- 3:31PM, Faustus5 wrote:


May 18, 2012 -- 2:41PM, newchurchguy wrote:

There is a big difference between your view of "magic matter" and that of a system having a physical level and a logical level - where some of the "space" includes non-material structures such as logic gates.


Please provide a citation from a peer reviewed scientific source which documents a logic gate existing independently of matter or energy. Because if you think your last post did anything of the sort, you are once again deluding yourself.




lol -- of course I have never said that a physical logic gate isn't comprised of matter.  Read my post - I refer exactingly to two levels.  Your response reveals your lack of depth in your reading of the citation from A. Sloman.  What do you think a logic gate does in a compuational system?  The physical logic gate is a representation of actual output of computation and measurements of logical spaces.


You understand that logical simulations may represent physical events - but act all confused when it is pointed out that in science practice; physical events can simulate logical events.


Material logic gates IMPLEMENT functional but, abstract, logic gates. When you read the words of a story book - is the story in the letters or in the meaning of the letters.  You are as literal about physical events, as a Fundamentalist YEC is about their bible. 


read and learn:



A logic gate is an idealized or physical device implementing a Boolean function, that is, it performs a logical operation on one or more logic inputs and produces a single logic output. Depending on the context, the term may refer to an ideal logic gate, one that has for instance zero rise time and unlimited fan-out, or it may refer to a non-ideal physical device.[1] (see Ideal and real op-amps for comparison)


Logic gates are primarily implemented using diodes or transistors acting as electronic switches, but can also be constructed using electromagnetic relays (relay logic), fluidic logic, pneumatic logic, optics, molecules, or even mechanical elements. With amplification, logic gates can be cascaded in the same way that Boolean functions can be composed, allowing the construction of a physical model of all of Boolean logic, and therefore, all of the algorithms and mathematics that can be described with Boolean logic.



I have never taken an Idealist postion - (its all immaterial)-- its been a Neutral Monism position; where physical events and mental events both are from a neutral natural basis.




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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 9:33AM #26
newchurchguy
Posts: 3,572

May 10, 2012 -- 2:58AM, markom wrote:


I say in our body, because I cannot deny that we experience consciousness, being aware of self (I am) nevertheless. Explanation for this comes from purely biological perspective. Sensory (five senses) system attached to a complicated electro-chemical neural network memory called brains gives an illusion of self-awareness by recursive and predictive signal transmission.


Now from this point of view the characteristics of consciousness are subjective, memory dependant, temporal and changing, illusive, yet developing to some extend we don't really know yet.


And yes, the word consciousness is very fundamental and practical to discuss on topic like this. It would be almost impossible to replace it with other descriptive word and still maintain focus and be understandable.




Biological information processing can be seen as consciousness and limited to biological organisms.  However, I would make the case that "higher love" is not biological and has a signal source outside of our "brains".

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2 years ago  ::  May 23, 2012 - 5:40AM #27
markom
Posts: 29

Great discussion here, hot topic it seems :) I need to get back to the 'higher love' and other similar topics, because that is a real question and I have pondered a lot.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 12:45PM #28
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

May 18, 2012 -- 9:00AM, Faustus5 wrote:


May 18, 2012 -- 8:28AM, newchurchguy wrote:

Science, in the last 60 years, is no longer material based.  It is empirical evidence (as data) based and there is data about non-material phenonmena such as evidenced by logical coding and decoding processes.


Provide a citation from peer reviewed science in which there is any example of logical coding or decoding involving properties or processes that do not involve matter or energy. Good luck with that!


May 18, 2012 -- 8:28AM, newchurchguy wrote:

Tononi's intergrated information - likewise will not qualify for the list of physical units of measure.


Provide a citation from Tononi's actual work in which he provides a specific measure of information that is not measuring some property of matter or energy. Good luck with that!




This is always in the back of my mind. What is information which is not related to matter or energy? I don't know if the following applies, but this morning what seems to be an example came to mind.


What is the difference between science as exploration into, and understanding reality, and invention, the movement of the known into the unknown?


Tesla had a great understanding of electricity and was a great inventor. He was a proponent of AC vs Edison's DC. One day he was walking and a poem came to mind. From the words of the poem, on the spot Tesla invented the alternating current motor. A few seconds previous, the alternating current motor didn't exist. Then it existed only in the mind of Tesla. Then he actually built an alternating current motor.


Information appeared in Tesla's mind, from nothing out of thin air. Then Tesla turned the information into the matter and energy of a working electrical motor.


?


sdp 


 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 1:19PM #29
Faustus5
Posts: 2,022

Jun 9, 2012 -- 12:45PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

Information appeared in Tesla's mind, from nothing out of thin air.


Not out of thin air. He had been thinking about electricity intensely. This would have created physical changes in the networks of neurons which represented aspects of the phenomenon, and when neighboring networks processed the poem, this activated new connections. All physical. Nothing out of thin air.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 1:33PM #30
Beingofone
Posts: 424

Faust post 8:


At any given time, many modular cerebral networks are active in parallel and process information in an unconscious manner. An information becomes conscious, however, if the neural population that represents it is mobilized by top-down attentional amplification into a brain-scale state of coherent activity that involves many neurons distributed throughout the brain. The long distance connectivity of these "workplace neurons" can, when they are active for a minimal duration, make the information available to a variety of processes including perceptual categorization, long-term memorization, evaluation, and intentional action. We postulate that this global availability of information through the workplace is what we subjectively experience as a conscious state.


--"Towards a cognitive neuroscience of consciousness: basic evidence and a workspace framework", Dehaene and Naccache



I just love it. You want peer review and these wooden heads - just like you - cannot see the elephant in the room. Peer review is the good ole boy network designed to keep a monopoly on real scientific investigation.


This part:


the neural population that represents it is mobilized by top-down attentional amplification





Is almost never addressed by materialistic preachers.


Attention - your attention please. Who or what decides where to focus attention?


No answer? I did not think so.


Its the little guy in your head that decides. The little guy in his head - and its a little guy in the head all the way down - just like turtles.


Here is the answer you get. Its a giant turing machine that acts like and algorithm that leads back to the big bang by cause and effect that decides by external feedback that pushes the data stream.


Sarcasm intended.


Its so simple its hard to understand because it is so very simple.








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