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Switch to Forum Live View RATE sounds death knell for "young Earth" creationism
1 year ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 12:19AM #11
rangerken
Posts: 13,714

It would be nice to have one or more links to the RATE matter. this is NOT a requirement on this forum, but it would be helpful.... and polite!!!


Rangerken

Conservative, Libertarian, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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1 year ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 1:09AM #12
McAtheist
Posts: 6,289

I am not having any luck finding links to actual parts of the RATE project report; maybe it is the same as the book they flog: Thousands Not Billions: Challenging the Icon of Evolution?


The Institute for Creation Research has this page and this page about the project.


The quotes I posted quoting the RATE researchers came from the pages here;  I thought this was a farily balanced look at the work since the Christian organization that wrote the evaluation explicitly says they never condone nor denounce YECism in general, but oppose the dishonesty in claims that the results of the RATE research support a young Earth model.


Another very accessible article explaining why said research doesn't support the conclusions RATE reaches is here.

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1 year ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 11:28PM #13
Blü
Posts: 21,145

McAtheist


Interesting to note that on the two ICR pages you linked, of those publications that are dated, none is more recent than 2005, whereas the report on their work that you're citing is from 2007 - meaning those findings have been around for at least five years.


And as I said, the 2011 report on the net makes no mention of those findings.


An old maxim says, To suppress truth is to suggest falsity.

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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:06AM #14
d_p_m
Posts: 7,603

May 2, 2012 -- 1:09AM, McAtheist wrote:


I am not having any luck finding links to actual parts of the RATE project report; maybe it is the same as the book they flog: Thousands Not Billions: Challenging the Icon of Evolution? 




I think it is, if I recall the discussion at the time it was released.

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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 5:20PM #15
57
Posts: 16,339

The answer to your question has been answered in the RATE books. 


You can read the answer by clicking here then scrolling to pages 370-373.  After that there is more on the issue in the second RATE book.


Click here   then scroll to pages 67-74 



Of course your only rebuttle will be to slam the RATE books...and never addressing the scientific issue.  But, the bottom line is your question has been answered.  Can you refute it using science rather than the typical evo-babbling BS?



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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 5:23PM #16
Blü
Posts: 21,145

57


Of course your only rebuttle will be to slam the RATE books...and never addressing the scientific issue.


What scientific issue?


I've already quoted (in #7) the part where RATE states out loud and proud that it relies on magic to get its results.


And no possibility arises that the RATE work will even be offered for publication in any reputable peer-reviewed journal of science.  That's because its authors are well aware that they're playing games of religious anti-science.


The only issues here are baseless claims of an irrational faith.


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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:04PM #17
McAtheist
Posts: 6,289

57: The answer to your question has been answered in the RATE books.


I guess we have very different definitions of "answered."  From 57"s first link:   "Therefore we should not be surprised if we find evidence that god has supernaturally intervened, either directly or indirectly, to produce such large changes.  For those who feel that allowing the possibility of God's intervention in the natural world is incompatible with science, let me point out several things which might broaden their definition of "science."  First if God had so intervened then all theories related ot the results of that intervention must take account of it --- if they are to be correct.  It would thus be foolish to exclude a priori the possibility of God causing an acceleration of nuclear decay.  Second, there is nothing preventing us from looking for evidence in the natural world of the scientific consequences of accelerated decay... Third, if we can find hints about accelerated decay in Scripture and Scriptura; reasons for god to cause it then our case is stronger. (334)


So, the way that the RATE team "addresses" the numerous problems with their "model" is to say "goddidit."  It's a standard YEC ploy: painted yourself into a corner in your pseudo-science propaganda?  No problem!  Just have Jesus pull his wand and as fast as you can say "Runawayius Yellowbellium" you have circumvented all scientific methodology and can claim that anything imaginable happened!


That's right, 57 --- if a "researcher" can claim magic happened whenever their hypotheses are in trouble, then every single thing you can think of might have happened.  The ark was pulled by a team of Sasquatches -- god did it!  Noah and crew were fed by caramel popcorn that appeared in the air and floated into their mouths --- god did it!  The animals from the ark got around the world in hot air balloon flown by leprechauns --- god did it!

And according to this article, what exactly did God do to eliminate the heat problem of condensing 500 million years of radioactive decay into a year?  He condensed the expansion of the entire cosmos into one year!  Yeah!  Let's "explain" one wholly impossible and unsubstantiated claim by inventing a second wholly impossible and unsubstantiated claim.  And Noah didn't suffer radiation poison from the massive acceleration of decay because --- wait for it ---- Jesus waved his magic wand and......


No wonder these fairy tales aren't published in reputable scientific journals, but only sold to gullible undereducated laypeople --- there isn't any science in them. 


So, are there any YEC sources that aren't unmitigated crap? 

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1 year ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 6:52AM #18
rsielin
Posts: 2,813

May 3, 2012 -- 11:04PM, McAtheist wrote:

57: The answer to your question has been answered in the RATE books.


I guess we have very different definitions of "answered."  From 57"s first link:   "Therefore we should not be surprised if we find evidence that god has supernaturally intervened, either directly or indirectly, to produce such large changes.  For those who feel that allowing the possibility of God's intervention in the natural world is incompatible with science, let me point out several things which might broaden their definition of "science."  First if God had so intervened then all theories related ot the results of that intervention must take account of it --- if they are to be correct.  It would thus be foolish to exclude a priori the possibility of God causing an acceleration of nuclear decay.  Second, there is nothing preventing us from looking for evidence in the natural world of the scientific consequences of accelerated decay... Third, if we can find hints about accelerated decay in Scripture and Scriptura; reasons for god to cause it then our case is stronger. (334)




Actually, real science will consider supernatural explanations. Science considers any and all useful explanations.  But GODDIDIT provides no beneficial information to mankind that can be acted upon.


“GODDIDIT”, or Rate's “a miracle occurred here”, simply isn’t a useful explanation.


“GODDIDIT” doesn’t tell a paleontologist where to look for the next fossil.


“GODDIDIT” doesn’t tell a geologist where to look for the next oil deposit.


“GODDIDIT” doesn’t predict bacterial drug resistance.


“GODDIDIT” doesn’t help an engineer build a better bridge.


“GODDIDIT” doesn’t predict where the next lightening bolt will strike, or when the next comet or other celestial object will show itself in the sky. 


“GODDIDIT” doesn’t explain Mendelian inheritance.


As soon as the supernatural explanation can be shown to be useful, I’m sure that scientists at Microsoft, or Exxon, or Cargill, or Johnson-and-Johnson will be suing each other to be the first to patent it.


Perhaps 57 can give just one single example where a supernatural explanation has proven to be useful in explaining any scientific or technical endeavor in the last 500 hundred years. Just one example. Anything. Any where. Any subject.


Name one, and explain how the supernatural explanation was useful.


Name one, or quit complaining about Science and admit your supernatural explanations are completely, utterly useless in the real world.




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1 year ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 12:08PM #19
Midutch
Posts: 2,301

May 3, 2012 -- 5:23PM, Blü wrote:


57


Of course your only rebuttle will be to slam the RATE books...and never addressing the scientific issue.


What scientific issue?


I've already quoted (in #7) the part where RATE states out loud and proud that it relies on magic to get its results.


Don't forget, though, that to "creationists" like 57 magic is MORE REAL than science is.


The RATE study using "and then magic happened" as part of their explanation makes it MORE believable to the lay "creationists" if they "know" that it involves their "god" or "creator". After all, their entire (religious/theological/philosophical/psychological/emotional) lives are based on magic being an integral part of their world view and "goddidit" will ALWAYS trump logic, reason, observation, experimentation, scientific research and empirical evidence.


Further, it eliminates the need for all of that hard and complicated study, work, effort, education, etc. needed to understand all of that sciencey sounding stuff. They can be dishwashers at the local fast food restaurant and STILL be smarter than all of the worlds scientists put together because, well, they're special and "god" gave them information that the silly scientists don't have or understand.

"creationism" ... 2000+ years worth of ABYSMAL FAILURE ... and proud of it.
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1 year ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 4:58PM #20
57
Posts: 16,339

I've noticed none of you evos even tried to answer the accelerated decay with science. 


Not one of you proved the theory is not feasable.  Instead you leaned on "mockery" and other unscientific means to support your post.


How sad.   How typical. 


Psalm 18:7-9 might be an example of this happening...causing the flood and during the flood. 

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