Okay, would any Young Earth Creationist care to explain to us why we can see light and other electromagnetic radiation from objects more distant than 6,000 light years? Please don't give us the gravity well nonsense again - the light from distant objects is not blue-shifted, in fact it is the opposite. So that argument is dead in the water already.
Here is another problem: we can see old and middle aged and dying stars further away than 6,000 light years. We can also see galaxies about to collide, colliding and just after colliding. Do you know how long a galactic collision lasts? Longer than 6,000 years I can tell you!
The discoveries of Astronomy present insurmountable problems for Young Earth Creationism and generally cancel it out as a serious idea.
But if there is some sort of vaguely plausible explanation for the visibility of objects greater than 6,000 light years distant, I am all ears.
Okay, would any Young Earth Creationist care to explain to us why we can see light and other electromagnetic radiation from objects more distant than 6,000 light years? Please don't give us the gravity well nonsense again - the light from distant objects is not blue-shifted, in fact it is the opposite. So that argument is dead in the water already.
Here is another problem: we can see old and middle aged and dying stars further away than 6,000 light years. We can also see galaxies about to collide, colliding and just after colliding. Do you know how long a galactic collision lasts? Longer than 6,000 years I can tell you!
The discoveries of Astronomy present insurmountable problems for Young Earth Creationism and generally cancel it out as a serious idea.
But if there is some sort of vaguely plausible explanation for the visibility of objects greater than 6,000 light years distant, I am all ears.
Iama will now tell you that you need to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.
Okay, would any Young Earth Creationist care to explain to us why we can see light and other electromagnetic radiation from objects more distant than 6,000 light years? Please don't give us the gravity well nonsense again - the light from distant objects is not blue-shifted, in fact it is the opposite. So that argument is dead in the water already.
Here is another problem: we can see old and middle aged and dying stars further away than 6,000 light years. We can also see galaxies about to collide, colliding and just after colliding. Do you know how long a galactic collision lasts? Longer than 6,000 years I can tell you!
The discoveries of Astronomy present insurmountable problems for Young Earth Creationism and generally cancel it out as a serious idea.
But if there is some sort of vaguely plausible explanation for the visibility of objects greater than 6,000 light years distant, I am all ears.
Iama will now tell you that you need to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.
I am sure that you're right, Ken. However, I really want to press Young Earth Creationists on this topic because I believe that this is a make or break issue for belief in a 6,000 year old universe. Obviously, it is a problem that I feel certain Creationists can not solve, but I would like to hear what they have to say on this subject, especially because they want to influence the teaching of science to children.
Proselytising to me isn't going to answer the question, of course.
Okay, would any Young Earth Creationist care to explain to us why we can see light and other electromagnetic radiation from objects more distant than 6,000 light years? Please don't give us the gravity well nonsense again - the light from distant objects is not blue-shifted, in fact it is the opposite. So that argument is dead in the water already.
Here is another problem: we can see old and middle aged and dying stars further away than 6,000 light years. We can also see galaxies about to collide, colliding and just after colliding. Do you know how long a galactic collision lasts? Longer than 6,000 years I can tell you!
The discoveries of Astronomy present insurmountable problems for Young Earth Creationism and generally cancel it out as a serious idea.
But if there is some sort of vaguely plausible explanation for the visibility of objects greater than 6,000 light years distant, I am all ears.
Iama will now tell you that you need to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.
Well, that won't work.
This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
Okay, would any Young Earth Creationist care to explain to us why we can see light and other electromagnetic radiation from objects more distant than 6,000 light years? Please don't give us the gravity well nonsense again - the light from distant objects is not blue-shifted, in fact it is the opposite. So that argument is dead in the water already.
Here is another problem: we can see old and middle aged and dying stars further away than 6,000 light years. We can also see galaxies about to collide, colliding and just after colliding. Do you know how long a galactic collision lasts? Longer than 6,000 years I can tell you!
The discoveries of Astronomy present insurmountable problems for Young Earth Creationism and generally cancel it out as a serious idea.
But if there is some sort of vaguely plausible explanation for the visibility of objects greater than 6,000 light years distant, I am all ears.
Iama will now tell you that you need to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.
Well, that won't work.
Well, the majority of Christians in the world accept the scientific fact that the universe is billions of years old, this must be a headache for YECs. Accepting or not accepting Christ isn't going to change anything.
iam: My answers will never satisfy your, because you do not believe that you have a Creator-God!...Once you turn around / make an about face regarding your atheistic stance, you wil have your answer...."With God all things are possible!"...Christ Jesus SPOKE to the storm on The Sea of Galilee, and immediately, there was calm!
McAtheist: I would call this an appeal to magic and while it might make just dandy theology, there isn't anything remotely scientific about it.
Why don't you guys just admit that YECism isn't based on evidence and isn't science and thus should never be taught in a science classroom?
iama: I call the evolution speculation, also, an appeal to magic and while it might make just dandy materialistic sense, there isn't anything remotely scientific about it.
Why don't you guys just admit that evolutionism isn't based on evidence and isn't science and thus should never be taught in a science classroom?
You see, McAtheist, everything that you claim concerning YECism, also, applies to evolutionism.
Since they are both historical sciences, and since there is no historical evidence for either origins paradigms, neither one should be taught in a science classroom!
.
The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin . "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." . Justice is receiving what you deserve. Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve. Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve. .
It is precisely science. There is nothing about evolution and the theory that describes it that is unscientific. Now please stop derailing this thread. Idiotic statements about evolution don't tell us why we can see astronomical objects like stars, nebulae and galaxies a distances greater than 6,000 light years. This is the question I posed in this thread. Please stop attempting to derail it.
You see, McAtheist, everything that you claim concerning YECism, also, applies to evolutionism.
Evolution is what we see, the theory of evolution describes it. It is all science. Now, let's get back to the enormous problem of distant objects visible on earth. If you can't explain this problem you will be stuck with having to admit that the universe is billions of years old.
Since they are both historical sciences, and since there is no historical evidence for either origins paradigms, neither one should be taught in a science classroom!
There is a mountain of evidence that supports evolution, palaeontology, geology, physics, astrophysics, cosmology. Nothing supports Young Earth Creationism at all.
Now, please answer the question posed in this thread.
Okay, would any Young Earth Creationist care to explain to us why we can see light and other electromagnetic radiation from objects more distant than 6,000 light years? Please don't give us the gravity well nonsense again - the light from distant objects is not blue-shifted, in fact it is the opposite. So that argument is dead in the water already.
Here is another problem: we can see old and middle aged and dying stars further away than 6,000 light years. We can also see galaxies about to collide, colliding and just after colliding. Do you know how long a galactic collision lasts? Longer than 6,000 years I can tell you!
The discoveries of Astronomy present insurmountable problems for Young Earth Creationism and generally cancel it out as a serious idea.
But if there is some sort of vaguely plausible explanation for the visibility of objects greater than 6,000 light years distant, I am all ears.
iama: I call the evolution speculation, also, an appeal to magic and while it might make just dandy materialistic sense, there isn't anything remotely scientific about it. Why don't you guys just admit that evolutionism isn't based on evidence and isn't science and thus should never be taught in a science classroom? You see, McAtheist, everything that you claim concerning YECism, also, applies to evolutionism. Since they are both historical sciences, and since there is no historical evidence for either origins paradigms, neither one should be taught in a science classroom!
Luckily, the rest of the world doesn't operate on the YEC level of ignorance; unlike you, a lot of people in the real world actually know how to do science.
There is a huge amount of data regarding the history of the Earth and there have been a number of hypotheses to explain them. But it's possible to develop tests of the order of "If X happened, then we should see Y in the evidence" sorts of test regarding those hypotheses.
One of the first to fall was a literal Genesis and it fell to the findings of Christian geologists that had believed in Noah's flood until the mountains of evidence against that event convinced them otherwise. That the Earth is only a few thousand years old has been disproved. That all species on Earth were reduced to a handful of breeders 4K years ago has been disproved.
And the only way you can rescue your "model" from the overwhelming evidence against it is to invoke Jesus Potter and his magic wand. It's pretty much a give-away that your concept is wrong when it requires breaking numerous laws of physics, chemistry and biology, Iam, and invented nonsense like the Earth vomiting up the asteroid belt.
So, until such a time as either new information or better understanding emerge, the old Earth/evolution model is the only one that explains what is found in the real world. That's why all those billions of Christians, Jews, Hindus, atheists, pagans, etc. accept that model along with their religious affiliation. That's why it's taught in public schools and universities.
And I think it's one reason why teens raised in YEC fundamentalism that get a chance to see the evidence for the mainstream model are leaving fundamentalism in droves.
YECism has already failed and the world has already moved on; YECism is irrelevant to any real discussions of the history of the Earth.
steven_guy: Now, back to the topic. We can see with our naked eyes stars and galaxies much greater than 6,000 light years away. M.31 in Andromeda is nearly 3 million light years away.
Young Earth Creationists should explain why we can see them here - in this thread. I don't know about anyone else, but I won't be following any links to any Creationist websites. So if you're a YEC you will have to explain the problem of distant objects being visible in your own words
iama: Why would your problem of understanding be a problem for our Creator-God?
"Our"? (blows loud raspberry)
iama: You can deny that all human beings are created beings / procreation being the created means, until you eventually stand before Him, but your denial can NEVER change the fact of His existence, or of "His great power and Godhead."
iama: He steven_guy: ("He"? He has a penis and testicles?)
iama: I suspect that someone at CMI is reading these threads, because an article,
Christ Jesus, God-Son, incarnate, lived, was crucified, His physical body, having a penis and testicles, was resurrected three days later, He appeared to as many as 500 individuals over a period of 40 days - all in the land of Israel, and then, ascended back to the eternal realm, as the resurrected God-Man. It is too bad that you have rejected the resources which could educate you. I, personally, believe that it was Christ Jesus - the resurrected God-Man - Who walked with Adam and Eve in The Garden of Eden. Once the God-Man returned to the eternal realm, He could enter into any instance of human history that He chose to. The Bible states that He appeared to Adam and Eve, and walked with them "in the cool of the evening." He appeared to Abraham and Sarah along with two angels just prior to Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Jacob wrestled with Him when he was on his way back to Israel after having served his uncle Laban. He appeared to Joshua the day before the Israelites were to go against Jericho.
iama: is:
1. Omnipotent
steven_guy: Prove it.
iama: The evidences which I have been given, along with all, other, human beings, is The Creation: The Universe, The Earth, The Sun, M31 galaxy, our human brains, our human bodies, plants, animals, our nervous systems, the bee, pollination, the periodic table of elements, LIFE, reproduction systems, DNA information codes...
iama: 2. Omnipresent
steven_guy: Prove it.
iama: Our Creator-God is present everywhere in His Creation and in eternity. Therefore, He is able to SPEAK, "and it was so." "He made the stars also." The very fact that you are asking this particular question regarding The Creation 6000 years ago, which included the vast Universe, is your proof!
iama: 3. Omniscient!
steven_guy: Prove it.
iama: Only an OMNISCIENT Creator-God could have possibly created The Earth / The Universe, and "all that in them is!" "He calls the stars by their names." The Bible tells us that He is keeping excellent records of "the works" of all human beings who have ever existed.
iama: Our Creator-God exists in the reality-realm of eternity, which has been closed to human beings since Adam chose to obey Satan rather than his Creator-God.
steven_guy: And while you're at it, answer the question I posed at the start of this thread.
iama: You claim that you desire answers, and then you reject the source of the answer.
iama: Christ Jesus entered into this physical-reality-realm ~2000 years ago, and returned there about 33 years later.
steven_guy: Prove it. There is no evidence that Jesus Christ ever existed and if she or he ever existed, we know nothing about him or her.
iama: Oh, but there IS! The Bible plainly gives evidences from the very first to the very last word. There is no human being, currently, who can answer your posed question - neither creation-scientists nor secular-scientists. If they could answer your question, you would already have the answer. If you keep all evidences away from your mind, of course you can make your claims, but your claims can never erase the evidence of Christ Jesus' existence. Have you ever read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
iama: Once Christ Jesus had resurrected / returned to physical life and His resurrection body, He passed through the rock slab to the tomb, passed through locked doors, appeared and disappeared, ate food, showed His disciples the wounds from His crucifixion.
steven_guy: If you have something to contribute to this thread, may I suggest that you start by answering the question.
iama: I am answering your question. The fact that you reject my answer is not my problem, but is your problem. There IS A CREATOR-GOD, and He is capable of SPEAKING The Universe into existence - BOOM - "and it was so"!
iama: There is NO WAY that any finite human being is EVER going to be able to explain to you the answer to your problem!
steven_guy: LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All I asked is for you to explain why we can see objects further away than 6,000 light years. Come on, this should be a no-brainer for Creationists. You must have an answer. Remember! No copy pasting, because no one will be reading it. In your own words, please explain why we can see objects like the galaxy in the constellation of Andromeda when it is 3,000,000 light years away?
iama: Our Creator-God, Who is OMNIPRESENT created the light reaching The Earth on Day 4 of The Creation Week. On Day 1 He created "the waters," and energized it when He spoke, "Let there be light," and on Day 2, He separated the energized "waters." The "waters" which became "The Earth" were separated by the atmosphere surrounding The Earth from "the waters" which were to become The Universe on Day 4, including as Genesis 1:15-19 states, The Moon, The Sun, and "He made the stars also." Our Creator-God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient! The Universe demonstrates His "great power and Godhead"!
iama: My answers will never satisfy you, because you do not believe that you have a Creator-God!
steven_guy: Would that possibly because you don't have an answer? There are plenty of theists who accept that the universe is 13.5 billion years old in fact most theists do.
iama: The only reason that anyone would accept that the universe is 13.5 billion years old, is because they have been indoctrinated / proselytized and are believers of the words spoken to them. They believe the supposed science over The Bible's historical-truth-recording.
iama: Once you turn around / make an about face regarding your atheistic stance, you will have your answer.
steven_guy: Tell that to theists like Amcolph and Wohali and Fish!
iama: They have bought The Lie, too.
iama: "With God all things are possible!"
steven_guy: That's not an answer, it is a cop out.
iama: That is the ONLY ANSWER which is currently available. All other speculations are non-evidenced, observationally.
iama: Christ Jesus SPOKE to the storm on The Sea of Galilee, and immediately, there was calm!
steven_guy: What has that nonsense got to do with the question of three million year old light being visible on earth?
iama: Christ Jesus, God-Son, incarnate, spoke on Day 4 of The Creation Week, and on Day 6, after Adam had been created, he was able to view The Universe from The Earth, and he may even have been given the names of all of the historical-constellations, and their star names.
When Christ Jesus walked the land of Israel ~2,000 years ago, during His 3.5 years of public ministry, He spoke / He commanded / He healed the man born blind, the lepers, the paralytic, the lame, the dead were raised, Lazarus was stinking after being 4 days in his tomb, and Christ Jesus spoke, "Lazarus, come forth, and he that was dead came forth."
When God does His work of Creation / healing / casting out demons / calming the storm on the Sea of Galilee / healing a sick child at a distance / healing a sick man at a distance / etc., it was accomplished, immediately.
Our Creator-God is able to do what The Bible states that He did!
The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin . "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." . Justice is receiving what you deserve. Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve. Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve. .
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