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Switch to Forum Live View ORIGIN OF LIFE - Question #2 - How Did the DNA Code Originate?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 5:12PM #211
MMarcoe
Posts: 17,262

Apr 23, 2012 -- 5:06PM, d_p_m wrote:


Apr 23, 2012 -- 1:50PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Apr 23, 2012 -- 11:11AM, d_p_m wrote:


Apr 22, 2012 -- 12:21PM, iamachildofhis wrote:


As the two men in the two videos came to realize, we, human beings, are nothing, without Christ Jesus.




Ok, so you've found two men of questionable intelligence or sanity, who have come to a stupid and unjustified conclusion. Why would we care? They are almost certainly beyond help, and we can't save everyone, anyway.





I think that what Iama is really saying (but without understanding it) is a standard viewpoint in theology, which is that our identities as humans (our forms) are not the real us, but our spirits (our being) are our real identities.




If that's what she is trying to say she really didn't manage it. And there's a lot to prove if it is stated as you did it... and once you drag Christ into it, you're spouting pure bullshit.





And that's why I don't count on the Bible much when I study divinity. You can get a verse here and a verse there, but they don't add up to much. I agree that there's a lot to prove if it is stated as I did. But the long line of Christian mystics has managed to do it, though some have been excommunicated or burned at the stake for it.


 

1. Extremists think that thinking means agreeing with them.
2. There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.
3. God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 2:39PM #212
lucaspa
Posts: 557

Apr 23, 2012 -- 5:06PM, d_p_m wrote:


I think that what Iama is really saying (but without understanding it) is a standard viewpoint in theology, which is that our identities as humans (our forms) are not the real us, but our spirits (our being) are our real identities.



If that's what she is trying to say she really didn't manage it. And there's a lot to prove if it is stated as you did it... and once you drag Christ into it, you're spouting pure bullshit.



1.  d_p_m, are you sure you are not misstating your particular belief system as "fact"?  Discussing our reality in terms of the ultimate reality of God (ultimate reality believed by theists) need be no more "bullshit" than discussing the ultimate reality of atheists: that there is only the physical universe.  Both can be bullshit, but both can also not be bullshit.


2. Within Christian theology, there are 2 ways of looking at that "human beings are nothing without Christ Jesus".
    a.  The idea that who we "really" are is independent of our physical bodies but depends on our theological "spirit" .  This is not so far fetched as you seem to think.  Stop and think about it for a bit:  the atoms that make up our physical bodies today are not the same atoms that made them up 10 years ago.   So what makes up "us"?  It can't just be the atoms at one particular point in time, because all those are gone and replaced by new atoms.  Christianity believes that there is an part of us that resides in and interpenetrates with our physical bodies but can be separated from our bodies and exist without them.  Iama is saying those "souls" or "spirits" cannot exist without God.  Since Jesus is part of the Trinity, Iama says "Christ Jesus" to refer to this part of Trinity as opposed to the physical body of Jesus ben Joseph.
   b. Christian belief holds that God sustains the universe.  Basically, all the physical processes happen only because God wills them to, each and every time.  Hydrogen and oxygen combust to water?  Only because God wills it to happen.  It's just that He does so each and every time.  Science can't tell us that is wrong.  We can't do the experiments to test the hypothesis.  So the other way to look at Iama's statement is that we human beings (or anything and everything else in the universe) are utterly dependent upon God to keep willing those processes that allow us to live or even allow the universe to continue existing.


The extrapolation of those beliefs to the idea that God had to directly manufacture the genetic code is nonsense (bullshit).  There are processes within the universe (chemistry and natural selection) that will produce the genetic code. 


You are free to disagree with the beliefs, but "bullshit" implies that you have the evidence to show the beliefs to be totally false.  You don't in this case. So please have a bit more respect for the beliefs of others even if you don't share those beliefs.

"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault."  Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437

"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works."  James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, The Religious Aspects of Evolution, 2d ed. 1890, pg 68.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 8:07PM #213
rsielin
Posts: 4,702

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:39PM, lucaspa wrote:

You are free to disagree with the beliefs, but "bullshit" implies that you have the evidence to show the beliefs to be totally false.  You don't in this case. So please have a bit more respect for the beliefs of others even if you don't share those beliefs.


Not that I disagree with you here; however, the group that is throwing the disrespecting epithets clearly are the YECs that post on this forum.  


Most non-YECs here, even the avowed atheists would be content to respectively leave our fundamentalists to their own beliefs but their very vicious and personal attacks on legitimate science, the scientists doing excellent work and first-rate science education and their clear absence of evidenced based intellectual logic must be opposed at all costs.  It’s a clear threat to our civilized existence.  


Maybe you just don't have enough history here to fully realize that. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 9:56PM #214
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 24, 2012 -- 2:39PM, lucaspa wrote:

The idea that who we "really" are is independent of our physical bodies but depends on our theological "spirit" .  This is not so far fetched as you seem to think.  Stop and think about it for a bit:  the atoms that make up our physical bodies today are not the same atoms that made them up 10 years ago.  


They are in the central nervous system.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:21PM #215
MMarcoe
Posts: 17,262

Apr 23, 2012 -- 2:07AM, MMarcoe wrote:


Apr 22, 2012 -- 12:07AM, iamachildofhis wrote:


iama:  You haven't been paying attention!  There is a conserved portion of the DNA information coding and non-coding system, and a portion which is designed to initiate variation within the confines of the conserved KIND.


iama:  Individual life-form KINDs were specifically created to remain as a conserved-KIND, but be capable of reproduction with variation within the KIND. 





I don't know why you continue to ignore me, but I have pointed out to you many times that conserved core processes do, in fact, experience mutations. Not variations, but actual mutations.


They are not set in stone. I know you have staked your whole creationist ideology on these conserved core processes, but you are misunderstanding them.


 





Still running from the mutability of conserved core processes, I see.


Don't worry -- evolution has no ability to kill your faith in God.


 

1. Extremists think that thinking means agreeing with them.
2. There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.
3. God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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