Teilhard,

I agree with all your comments.

Nov 8, 2011 -- 8:17PM, teilhard wrote:

***No ... In The Story, they come to "KNOW Good and Evil," the Hebrew Verb there meaning NOT "understnd the Difference between," but rather, "the Ability to PERFORM Good and Evil" (i.e., in a "God"-like Way ...)

Nov 7, 2011 -- 9:47AM, Blü wrote:

teilhard

In your post you TRY to perform the very same BLAME-("God")-Game reportedly attempted by "Adam" and "Eve" ...

In the story, Yahweh is portrayed as speaking and acting in certain ways in particular circumstances.

They include his being angry with Adam and Eve because they can now ***tell good from evil, and punishing them in specific ways.

I'm just reporting what the story says, and what it doesn't say.

In particular, no Fall is present in the story.  You appear to agree with that.

The Hebrew Verb in The Story is TRANSLATED "Knowledge," but it is in the Sense of CAPACITY to PERFORM ... It ISN'T simply (ONLY) "Understanding" ...

Many Biblical Words do indeed express a Range and Depth of Connotation that is impossible to render entirely accurately by a single Word-to-Word Translation ...

In his Commentary on Genesis (1972), e.g., von Rad writes it nicely (p. 89) -- ""So far as knowledge of good and evil is concerned one must remember that the Hebrew yd' ('to know') never signifies purely intellectual knowing, but in a much wider sense an 'experiencing,' a 'becoming acquainted with,' even an 'ability.'"

Nov 9, 2011 -- 5:48AM, Blü wrote:

teilhard

***No ... In The Story, they come to "KNOW Good and Evil," the Hebrew Verb there meaning NOT "understnd the Difference between," but rather, "the Ability to PERFORM Good and Evil" (i.e., in a "God"-like Way ...)

There are two relevant passages.

In Genesis 2:9 we have the phrase the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - the key word is (or is based on) da'ath (says the Blue Letter Bible) and translates as 'knowledge'

And in 3:5 we have "knowing good and evil".  There the verb is (or is based on) yada', which translates as 'to know' and covers a) to know, learn to know b) to perceive c) to perceive and see, find out and discern d) to discriminate, distinguish e) to know by experience f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess g) to consider 2) to know, be acquainted with 3) to know (a person carnally) 4) to know how, be skilful in 5) to have knowledge, be wise'.

So the basic meaning is indeed to 'know' and this includes d) to discriminate, distinguish.  These two cover the plain meaning of the text in RSV translation.

Down the list we come to 4) to know how, be skilful in, but neither the RSV or any other translation I can find uses anything of the kind.  Perhaps you can point one out to us.

After all, consider the story.  They eat the fruit.  Their eyes were opened.  They realize they're naked. When company calls, they discreetly retire to the thicket.

That is, by eating the fruit they gain the "knowledge of good and evil" referred to in 2:9 and nothing changes in 3:5.

If you have a major translation that supports your interpretation, please refer me to it.  If you don't then I'm happy with the RSV (which agrees with every other translation I've looked at).

Anyway, the point is that Paul's Fall can't be found in Genesis.  And I notice you agree.

It's in the Story and it's in The VERB ...

Nov 9, 2011 -- 4:12PM, Blü wrote:

teilhard

I can live with 'becoming acquainted with' - as the story says, "their eyes were opened".

But the 'ability' part, although we can imply it from the opened eyes, isn't express in or relevant to the story.  Not that this alters things much in any event.