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Switch to Forum Live View Intelligent Falling
3 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 9:17AM #21
newchurchguy
Posts: 3,639

Nov 8, 2011 -- 6:39PM, Blü wrote:


ncg


And the morals of the story are teaching us about ourselves.


Quite another thing when your religion tells people that everyone's guilty of the Sin of Adam and must be redeemed.  You might call that invention the Sin of Paul.




Of course, you never fact check and that IS WHY YOU CONTINUALLY post wrong accounts of science and religion.  The New Church teaches that the "Fall" is not God removing His blessing, which is a human idea and is not what is being represented in Genesis.


The Fall is the loss of spiritual perception and the relying on natural ideas for moral guidance.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 9:24AM #22
newchurchguy
Posts: 3,639

Teilhard,


I agree with all your comments.


Nov 8, 2011 -- 8:17PM, teilhard wrote:


***No ... In The Story, they come to "KNOW Good and Evil," the Hebrew Verb there meaning NOT "understnd the Difference between," but rather, "the Ability to PERFORM Good and Evil" (i.e., in a "God"-like Way ...)


Nov 7, 2011 -- 9:47AM, Blü wrote:


teilhard


In your post you TRY to perform the very same BLAME-("God")-Game reportedly attempted by "Adam" and "Eve" ...


In the story, Yahweh is portrayed as speaking and acting in certain ways in particular circumstances.

They include his being angry with Adam and Eve because they can now ***tell good from evil, and punishing them in specific ways.


I'm just reporting what the story says, and what it doesn't say.

In particular, no Fall is present in the story.  You appear to agree with that.









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3 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 9:43AM #23
Blü
Posts: 25,062

ncg


The Fall is the loss of spiritual perception and the relying on natural ideas for moral guidance.


I'm delighted you don't hold with Paul's Fall.


But the idea that gods are necessary for good morals is untrue.

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 9:55AM #24
teilhard
Posts: 51,372

The Hebrew Verb in The Story is TRANSLATED "Knowledge," but it is in the Sense of CAPACITY to PERFORM ... It ISN'T simply (ONLY) "Understanding" ...


Many Biblical Words do indeed express a Range and Depth of Connotation that is impossible to render entirely accurately by a single Word-to-Word Translation ...


In his Commentary on Genesis (1972), e.g., von Rad writes it nicely (p. 89) -- ""So far as knowledge of good and evil is concerned one must remember that the Hebrew yd' ('to know') never signifies purely intellectual knowing, but in a much wider sense an 'experiencing,' a 'becoming acquainted with,' even an 'ability.'"


Nov 9, 2011 -- 5:48AM, Blü wrote:


teilhard


***No ... In The Story, they come to "KNOW Good and Evil," the Hebrew Verb there meaning NOT "understnd the Difference between," but rather, "the Ability to PERFORM Good and Evil" (i.e., in a "God"-like Way ...)


There are two relevant passages.


In Genesis 2:9 we have the phrase the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - the key word is (or is based on) da'ath (says the Blue Letter Bible) and translates as 'knowledge'

And in 3:5 we have "knowing good and evil".  There the verb is (or is based on) yada', which translates as 'to know' and covers a) to know, learn to know b) to perceive c) to perceive and see, find out and discern d) to discriminate, distinguish e) to know by experience f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess g) to consider 2) to know, be acquainted with 3) to know (a person carnally) 4) to know how, be skilful in 5) to have knowledge, be wise'.

So the basic meaning is indeed to 'know' and this includes d) to discriminate, distinguish.  These two cover the plain meaning of the text in RSV translation.


Down the list we come to 4) to know how, be skilful in, but neither the RSV or any other translation I can find uses anything of the kind.  Perhaps you can point one out to us.


After all, consider the story.  They eat the fruit.  Their eyes were opened.  They realize they're naked. When company calls, they discreetly retire to the thicket.


That is, by eating the fruit they gain the "knowledge of good and evil" referred to in 2:9 and nothing changes in 3:5.


If you have a major translation that supports your interpretation, please refer me to it.  If you don't then I'm happy with the RSV (which agrees with every other translation I've looked at).


Anyway, the point is that Paul's Fall can't be found in Genesis.  And I notice you agree.






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3 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 4:12PM #25
Blü
Posts: 25,062

teilhard

I can live with 'becoming acquainted with' - as the story says, "their eyes were opened".

But the 'ability' part, although we can imply it from the opened eyes, isn't express in or relevant to the story.  Not that this alters things much in any event.

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 6:15PM #26
teilhard
Posts: 51,372

It's in the Story and it's in The VERB ...


Nov 9, 2011 -- 4:12PM, Blü wrote:


teilhard

I can live with 'becoming acquainted with' - as the story says, "their eyes were opened".

But the 'ability' part, although we can imply it from the opened eyes, isn't express in or relevant to the story.  Not that this alters things much in any event.





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