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Switch to Forum Live View The bible - not history, and certainly not science.
3 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2011 - 11:13AM #51
Ken
Posts: 33,860

Dec 31, 1969 -- 6:00PM, d_p_m wrote:

I see you still don't seem to be able to name the Pharaohs you are making claims about. Problem finding them? I thought it was 'easy'?  So, secular Egyptology sources - who are these pharaohs you keep claiming exist, but never produce? And what are the dates of their reigns?


He probably means Pepi II Neferkare and his successor Merenre Nemtyemsaf II, who reigned in the late third millennium BCE. They were not the last two pharoahs, and their dates are far too early to have any connection with the Exodus.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2011 - 12:31PM #52
d_p_m
Posts: 9,045

Oct 19, 2011 -- 11:13AM, Ken wrote:

Dec 31, 1969 -- 6:00PM, d_p_m wrote:

I see you still don't seem to be able to name the Pharaohs you are making claims about. Problem finding them? I thought it was 'easy'?  So, secular Egyptology sources - who are these pharaohs you keep claiming exist, but never produce? And what are the dates of their reigns?


He probably means Pepi II Neferkare and his successor Merenre Nemtyemsaf II, who reigned in the late third millennium BCE. They were not the last two pharoahs, and their dates are far too early to have any connection with the Exodus.





Skipping over, of course, the fact that the Exodus never occurred.

PHARAOH IRY-HOR, FROM THE 3100s BC, IS THE FIRST HUMAN WHOSE NAME WE KNOW.

-- cool facts from xkcd


"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

-- Albert Einstein
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2011 - 3:43PM #53
Ken
Posts: 33,860

Oct 19, 2011 -- 12:31PM, d_p_m wrote:

Oct 19, 2011 -- 11:13AM, Ken wrote:


Dec 31, 1969 -- 6:00PM, d_p_m wrote:

I see you still don't seem to be able to name the Pharaohs you are making claims about. Problem finding them? I thought it was 'easy'?  So, secular Egyptology sources - who are these pharaohs you keep claiming exist, but never produce? And what are the dates of their reigns?


He probably means Pepi II Neferkare and his successor Merenre Nemtyemsaf II, who reigned in the late third millennium BCE. They were not the last two pharoahs, and their dates are far too early to have any connection with the Exodus.





Skipping over, of course, the fact that the Exodus never occurred.


I was being generous. The reigns of Pepi II and Merenre II were far earlier than any dates traditionally assigned to the so-called Exodus (which was not an historical event).

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2011 - 4:07PM #54
d_p_m
Posts: 9,045

Ok, so what we've got is a Pharaoh who reigned for somewhere between 64 and 94 years. Central authority decayed, and local nobles increased power, leading to a period of instability and civil strife. Not surprising, as the Pharaoh was somewhere between old and ancient. His successor was assasinated - again, not surpising given the unrest. Nothing unusual here, move along.

PHARAOH IRY-HOR, FROM THE 3100s BC, IS THE FIRST HUMAN WHOSE NAME WE KNOW.

-- cool facts from xkcd


"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

-- Albert Einstein
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2011 - 4:12PM #55
amcolph
Posts: 16,339

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaohs_in_the_He...


 


"The book of Exodus tells how the Israelites are enslaved in Egypt and eventually escape under the leadership of Moses.  Three pharaohs are involved: the "pharaoh of Joseph" who invites the  Israelites into Egypt, the "pharaoh of the oppression" who enslaves  them, and the "pharaoh of the exodus",  under whom they escape. The third pharaoh is clearly the immediate  successor the second, but the bible is not clear as to where the second  pharaoh stands in relation the first.


The biblical story does not name any of these pharaohs, nor does it  give enough information to identify the period in which the events are  set, with the result that there have been many suggestions as to which  of Egypt's many rulers was involved. Candidates put forward for the role  include:

  • Ahmose I (1550 BC-1525 BC).
  • Thutmose III (1479 BC-1425 BC)[2]
  • Horemheb (1319 BC-1292 BC) Ahmed Osman surmised that he was the Pharaoh of the Oppression.[citation needed]
  • Ramesses I Surmised by Ahmed Osman to be the Pharaoh of the Exodus. 
  • Ramesses II (1279 BC-1213 BC) Also known as Rameses the Great, he is the most  commonly imagined figure in popular culture, but there is no documentary  or archaeological evidence that he had to deal with the Plagues of Egypt or anything similar or that he chased Hebrew slaves fleeing Egypt. Ramesses II's late 13th century BC stela in Beth Shan mentions two conquered peoples who came to "make obeisance to him" in  his city of Raameses or Pi-Ramesses but mentions neither the building of  the city nor, as some have written, the Israelites or Hapiru.  Additionally, the historical Pithom was built in the 7th century BC, during the Saite period. 
  • Merneptah (1213 BC-1203 BC), son of Ramesses II. An inscription by this pharaoh  includes the first mention of "Israel" in the historical record, clearly  established in Canaan during his time."  

Evidently Hameras is trying to draw our attention to Ramesses II and Merneptah.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2011 - 4:37PM #56
d_p_m
Posts: 9,045

Oct 19, 2011 -- 4:12PM, amcolph wrote:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaohs_in_the_He...


 


"The book of Exodus tells how the Israelites are enslaved in Egypt and eventually escape under the leadership of Moses.  Three pharaohs are involved: the "pharaoh of Joseph" who invites the  Israelites into Egypt, the "pharaoh of the oppression" who enslaves  them, and the "pharaoh of the exodus",  under whom they escape. The third pharaoh is clearly the immediate  successor the second, but the bible is not clear as to where the second  pharaoh stands in relation the first.


The biblical story does not name any of these pharaohs, nor does it  give enough information to identify the period in which the events are  set, with the result that there have been many suggestions as to which  of Egypt's many rulers was involved. Candidates put forward for the role  include:

  • Ahmose I (1550 BC-1525 BC).
  • Thutmose III (1479 BC-1425 BC)[2]
  • Horemheb (1319 BC-1292 BC) Ahmed Osman surmised that he was the Pharaoh of the Oppression.[citation needed]
  • Ramesses I Surmised by Ahmed Osman to be the Pharaoh of the Exodus. 
  • Ramesses II (1279 BC-1213 BC) Also known as Rameses the Great, he is the most  commonly imagined figure in popular culture, but there is no documentary  or archaeological evidence that he had to deal with the Plagues of Egypt or anything similar or that he chased Hebrew slaves fleeing Egypt. Ramesses II's late 13th century BC stela in Beth Shan mentions two conquered peoples who came to "make obeisance to him" in  his city of Raameses or Pi-Ramesses but mentions neither the building of  the city nor, as some have written, the Israelites or Hapiru.  Additionally, the historical Pithom was built in the 7th century BC, during the Saite period. 
  • Merneptah (1213 BC-1203 BC), son of Ramesses II. An inscription by this pharaoh  includes the first mention of "Israel" in the historical record, clearly  established in Canaan during his time."  

Evidently Hameras is trying to draw our attention to Ramesses II and Merneptah.




Not very effectively.


Perhaps actually naming a Pharaoh would have helped.


And I am not sure that 10 years qualifies as a 'very short reign' - indeed, I think it does not.


Of course the fuzzier he gets, the more meaningless his point.

PHARAOH IRY-HOR, FROM THE 3100s BC, IS THE FIRST HUMAN WHOSE NAME WE KNOW.

-- cool facts from xkcd


"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

-- Albert Einstein
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2011 - 4:48PM #57
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,017




iama: I give up attempting to align these columns!!


John Ashton & David Down in their publication, Unwrapping the Pharaohs: How Egyptian Archaeology Confirms the Biblical Timeline, identifies the following biblical events with their related Egyptian dynasties, as follows:


Biblical Events & Reference--------------------------------Dates ---------Egyptian Dynasties


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dynasty 12


---------------------------------------------------------------1703-----------Amenemhet I


---------------------------------------------------------------1673-----------Sesostris I


Jacob migrated to Egypt, age 130 years 1660------------1660


Genesis 47:9


---------------------------------------------------------------1628------------Amenemhet II


---------------------------------------------------------------1592------------Sesostsris II


Joseph died (110-30-5=75) Gen. 50:26, 41:46,----------1589


45:11


1589


Opression of Israelites--------------------------------------1572-----------Sesostris III


----------------------------------------------------------------1531-----------Amenemhet III


Moses born 80 years before Exodus Ex. 7:7---------------1525


Moses fled to Midian, age 40 years Acts:23----------------1485


----------------------------------------------------------------1483----------Sobekneferu


----------------------------------------------------------------1479----------Dynasty 13


----------------------------------------------------------------1456----------Neferhotep I


----------------------------------------------------------------1445


Exodus 1 Kings 6:1


Ex 7:7-------------------------------------------------------------------------Dynasty 15, 16


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hyksos


40 years later Numbers 14:34-------------------------------1405


Israel inveded Canaan Deut. 34:7


Joshua and Judges. 354 years


-----------------------------------------------------------------1051


Israel Judah Egypt Assyria


Dynasty 17 was contemporary with Dynasty 16--------------------------------Dynasty 18


---------------------------------------------------------------1021-------------Ahmosis


Saul destroyed Amalekites (Hyksos)1 Sam. 15:7--------1018-------------End of Hyksos


David king 2 Sam. 5:4--------------------------------------1011


-----------------------------------------------------------------996----------Amenhotep I


-----------------------------------------------------------------975----------Thutmosis I


Solomon king 1 Kings 1:39-----------------------------------971


-----------------------------------------------------------------963-----------Thutmosis II


------------------------------------------------------------------950----------Hatshepsut


Queen of Sheba (Hatshepsut) visits Solomon---------------941-----------visit to Punt 9th year


1 Kings 10


Solomon reigned 40 years 1 Kings 11:43


Rehoboam king 1 Kings 11:43------------------------------931


Jeroboam king 1 Kings 12:20-------------------------------931


----------------------------------------------------------------929-----------Thutmosis III


5th year Rehoboam Shishak invation 1 Kings 14:25------927


Rehoboam reigned 17 years (+1 assession year)


1 Kings 14:21


Abijam king 1 Kings 15:1------------------------------------913


Jereboam reigned 22 years (incl. accession year)


1 Kings 14:22


Nadab king 1 Kings 14:20------------------------------------910


Nadab reigned 2 years (incl. accession year)


1 Kings 15:25


Baasha king 1 Kings 15:28-----------------------------------909


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Amenhotep II


War with Asa 2 Chron. 14:9-15


Baasha reigned 24 years 1 Kings 15:33


Elah king 1 Kings 16:6----------------------------------------886


Elah reigned 2 years (incl. accession year) 1 Kings 16:8


Omri king 1 Kings 16:23--------------------------------------885


Omri reigned 12 years (incl. accession year 1 Kings)


1 Kings 16:23


Ahab king 1 Kings 16:29--------------------------------------874


Asa reigned 41 years (3 years co-regency)


1 Kings 15:10


Jehoshaphat king 1 Kings 22:42 -----------------------------872


------------------------------------------------------------------872----------Thutmosis IV


------------------------------------------------------------------862----------Amanhotep III


------------------------------------------------------------------859----------Shalmaneser III


Battle of Qarwar, Ahab & Shalmaneser III--------------------853


Ahab reigned 22 years (incl. accession year)


1 Kings 16:29


Ahaziah king 1 Kings 22:51-----------------------------------853


Ahaziah reigned 2 years (incl. accession year)


1 Kings 22:51


Jehoram (Joram) king 2 Kings 3:1---------------------------852


Jehoshaphat reigned 25 years (1 year coregency)


1 Kings 22:42


Using the 2 Kings viblical references the Egyptian Dynasties are as follows:


-----------------------------------------------------------------824----------Akhenaten


Tel el Amarna letters mention Samaria


Jehu is shown paying tribute to Shalmaneser III--------------------------Shalmaneser Pillar (Jehu tribute)


-----------------------------------------------------------------804-----------Smenkaure


-----------------------------------------------------------------802-----------Tutankhamen


-----------------------------------------------------------------792-----------Ay 4 years


-----------------------------------------------------------------788-----------Harmheb


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dynasty 19


-----------------------------------------------------------------776-----------Rameses I year


-----------------------------------------------------------------775-----------Sethi I 16 years


-----------------------------------------------------------------745-----------Tiglath Pileser 18 years


Ahaz king 2 Kings 16:1---------------------------------------731


-----------------------------------------------------------------727-----------Shalmaneser V


Samaria conquered by Assyria 2 Kings 17:6, 18:10--------722-----------Saron II


-----------------------------------------------------------------705-----------Sennacherib


-----------------------------------------------------------------693-----------Merneptah


Merneptah stela 5th year, "Israel is destroyed"-------------688


contemporary with other dynasties------------------------------------------Dynasties 20-24


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dynasty 25


Sennacherib and Tirhakah 2 Kings 19:9--------------------690-----------Tirhakah


-----------------------------------------------------------------681----------Esarhaddon


-----------------------------------------------------------------671----------invaded Egypt


-----------------------------------------------------------------669----------Ashurbanipal


-----------------------------------------------------------------668----------invaded Egypt


-----------------------------------------------------------------664----------Tantamani


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dynasty 26


Josiah king 2 Kings 22:1--------------------------------------639


-----------------------------------------------------------------626-----------Nabopolassar


-----------------------------------------------------------------610-----------Necho II


Jerusalem conquered 2 Kings 25:4--------------------------605-----------Nebuchadnezzar


-----------------------------------------------------------------595-----------Psamtik II


-----------------------------------------------------------------589-----------Hophra


Jeremiah predicts Hopra's end Jer. 44:30--------------------589


Jerusalem destroyed 2 Kings 25:1-9-------------------------586


------------------------------------------------------------------570---------Amasis


-----------------------------------------------------------------562----------Amel-Marduk


-----------------------------------------------------------------560----------Nergal-shar-usur


-----------------------------------------------------------------556----------Nabonidus


Babylon conquered--------------------------------------------539----------Cyrus


-----------------------------------------------------------------526-----------Psamtik III


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dynasty 27 (Persian)


-----------------------------------------------------------------525----------Cambyses


-----------------------------------------------------------------521----------Darius I


-----------------------------------------------------------------486----------Xerxes


-----------------------------------------------------------------465----------Artaxerxes I


-----------------------------------------------------------------424----------Darius II


-----------------------------------------------------------------405----------Artaxerxes II


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dynasty 28


-----------------------------------------------------------------404----------Amyrtaeus


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dynasty 29


-----------------------------------------------------------------399----------Nepherites I


-----------------------------------------------------------------393----------Psammuthis


-----------------------------------------------------------------393----------Hakoris


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dynasty 30


------------------------------------------------------------------380---------Nactenebo I - Rameses III


------------------------------------------------------------------365---------Teos=Rameses IV


------------------------------------------------------------------360---------Nactenebo II=Rameses VI


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dynasty 31


-----------------------------------------------------------------343----------Artaxexes III


-----------------------------------------------------------------338----------Arses


-----------------------------------------------------------------335----------Darius III


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Greek Period


-----------------------------------------------------------------332----------Alexander the Great


From dynasty 25 onward, the usually accepted dates are more reliable, though there is some overlapping of kings.  Dynasties 20 to 24 should be regarded as contemporary with other dynasties, but for lack of source material it is impossible to sy exactly how, but the chronological information from Assyria, te Hittites, Israel, and Ebypt provide convincing evidence that Egyptian chronology needs to be drastically reduced in time.” - Unwrapping the Pharaohs





 

The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2011 - 5:40PM #58
Ken
Posts: 33,860

Oct 20, 2011 -- 4:48PM, iamachildofhis wrote:

iama: I give up attempting to align these columns!!


John Ashton & David Down in their publication, Unwrapping the Pharaohs: How Egyptian Archaeology Confirms the Biblical Timeline,



John Ashton is a nutritionist and David Down is an occasional tour guide who has dabbled in archeology. We may safely disregard everything they publish. Would you care to present the work of a qualified Egyptologist?

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2011 - 7:24PM #59
d_p_m
Posts: 9,045

Oct 20, 2011 -- 4:48PM, iamachildofhis wrote:


John Ashton & David Down in their publication, Unwrapping the Pharaohs: How Egyptian Archaeology Confirms the Biblical Timeline, identifies the following biblical events with their related Egyptian dynasties, as follows:


... Egyptian chronology needs to be drastically reduced in time.” - Unwrapping the Pharaohs




Of course they'd say that - they're trying to bend the facts to fit the bible, and to save the idea of a global flood about 4300 years ago... which the Egyptians never noticed as they went about their lives. Neither did any of the other major civilisations of the time.



PHARAOH IRY-HOR, FROM THE 3100s BC, IS THE FIRST HUMAN WHOSE NAME WE KNOW.

-- cool facts from xkcd


"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

-- Albert Einstein
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 24, 2011 - 8:35PM #60
christzen
Posts: 5,809

Oct 20, 2011 -- 7:24PM, d_p_m wrote:


...which the Egyptians never noticed as they went about their lives. Neither did any of the other major civilisations of the time.






 


It is rather amazing that all these civilizations around the world managed to go on about their business of living and existing when they all were supposed to have drowned to make room for the only righteous guy in the world,who,upon being delivered from the catastrophe,promptly got drunk and passed out and exposed himself,and then cursed his own son who saw him drunk and nude for......well....being the one to find him drunk and nude.

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