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Switch to Forum Live View The Historic Record of Jesus
7 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2011 - 11:36PM #241
Posts: 11,927

iama: The following sources are what back up the previous post's claims:

  1. The Bible: John's Gospel

    Jhn 1:14

    "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."


    “The Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

    Feast of Tabernacles – October 15-21

  1. Jeffrey, Grant R. Armageddon, Appointment with Destiny. Bantam Books, 1988.

    Dionysius Exiguus.

    “Our current system of numbering years (e.g. A.D. 1988) was developed in the sixth century by a monk named Dionysius Exiguus. He calculated the birth of Christ as having occurred in the Roman year 754. He computed the New Year, beginning January 1 of the year following Christ's birth as recorded by Luke, as the year A.D. 1 of his new calendar [Anno Domini--”Year of God-Christ”]. He based his calculation on the historical records available to him in Rome, plus the clear chronological statements of the historian Luke (3:1-2).”

    Eusebius. Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History. Oxford: The Clarendon Press, 1881.

    The Christian historian, Eusebius, in A.D. 315, appealed to existing Roman government records [the census of Cyrenius and Caesar Augustus] to prove that Christ was born in Bethlehem when Joseph and Mary went there to be enrolled in the census, as mentioned in Luke 2:1-6.”

    Justin Martyr.

    “Justin Martyr also stated that census records were still available to prove the truth of Christ's prophesied birth in Bethlehem (Apology chapter 1, verse 34).”

    “It is therefore probable that the monk, Dionysius, had access to accurate records to determine that the birth of Christ occurred in the year before A.D. 1, which would be the fall of the year 1 B.C., since there is only one year between 1 B.C. And A.D. l.”

    “Scholars discovered evidence several hundred years ago that caused them to adjust the date of Christ's nativity back to 4 B.B., or even 6 B.C. One reason was that they believed that the governor of Syria, Cyrenius (who administered the taxing in Luke 2:1-3), ruled in that position from 7 B.C. To 4 B.C. However, more recent archeological evidence has proved that Cyrenius was twice governor of Syria, and that his first period of rule was from 4 B.C. To 1 B.C.”

    Anderson, Robert. The Coming Prince. London: Hodder & Strougton, 1894.

    “In his book, The Coming Prince, page 92, Sir Robert Anderson said:

    In his Roman history, Mr. Merivale ... says (vol. Iv, page 457),'A remarkable light has been thrown upon the point by the demonstration, as it seems to be, of Augustus Zumpt in his second volume of Commentationes Epigraphicae, that Quirinus [the Cyrenius of St. Luke ii] was first governor of Syria from the close of A.U. 750 [B.C. 4], to A.U. 753 [B.C. 1].'

    Therefore, there is no contradiction with the time of Cyrenius's first Syrian governorship (4 B.C. To 1 B.C.) and the census of Luke 2:1-3 occurring during 1 B.C., as stated by the early Christian writers.”

    “Another factor which caused the date of Christ's birth to be adjusted back several years to 4 B.C. Was that some scholars believed that King Herod's death (which followed Christ's birth) must have occurred in 4 B.C. The reason for assigning 4 B.C. For the death of Herod was that the Jewish historian, Flavious Josephus, recorded that Herod died just before Passover in the same year that there was an eclipse of the moon. Astronomers knew of a partial lunar eclipse in Jerusalem on March 13, 4 B.C.; therefore, scholars were certain this proved that Herod had died and Christ was born in 4 B. C.

    However, additional astronomical evidence has revealed that the date of Herod's death could be as late as 1 B.C. Or A.D.1, allowing Christ's birth to have occurred in 1 B.C. We now know that a full (not a partial) lunar eclipse took place on January 9, 1 B.C., which could well be the one referred to by Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews (book xvii, chapter 6). Astronomical records reveal that eclipses of the moon were visible in Jerusalem during several years from 5 B.C. To A.D. 4, for example: March 23, 5 B.C., September 15, 5 B.C., March 12, 4 B.C. And January 9, 1 B.C. (Bible Encyclopedia and Scriptural Dictionary, page 433, by Rev. Samuel Fallows).”

    “... The information given in Luke 2:8, about the “shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over the flock by night,” indicates that it (Christmas, Dec 25) could not have been in late December because the cold weather would force the flocks and the shepherds to take shelter during that season.

    The Scriptures give a hint that the actual date of Christ's birth could have been the fifteenth day of Tishri, the Feast of Tabernacles, which occurs in our September-October. The Gospel of John (1:14) states, 'And the Word was made flesh, and tabernacled (dwelt) among us.' John would certainly be in a position to know Jesus' birthday and it is probable that he is hinting at the Feast of Tabernacles as the actual date by using the unusual word “tabernacled” to describe Christ's birth. The fact that some forty other key events in the scriptural history of Israel have occurred on biblical anniversaries of feast days would indicate a high probability that the birth of the Jewish Messiah would also occur on a feast date (in this case the Feast of Tabernacles, 1 B.C.).

    The Feast of Tabernacles was one of the annual Feasts on which all Jewish males were required to go to the Temple in Jerusalem to worship. This would cause a huge pilgrimage and thus a temporary increase in the population close to Jerusalem, and would help to account for the fact that 'there was no room in the inn' in Bethlehem on the night of Christ's birth. This census also would contribute to the overcrowding.”

    The Date of Christ's Ministry and His Crucifixion

    In all of Scripture the clearest, most definitive chronological statement is found in the beginning verses of Luke (3:1-2), which describes precisely the actual year in which John the Baptist began his ministry. Luke recorded that the beginning of Christ's teaching ministry started with His baptism (Luke 3:21-22), and that Jesus, when He began His ministry, 'was about thirty years of age' (Luke 3:23, RSV).

    The Roman emperor, Tiberius Caesar, ascended his throne as Emperor on the nineteenth day of August A.D. 14. This date was as well known in Luke's day as the date of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy is known in our day. Threfore, the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar began on the nineteenth day of August, A.D. 28. Historical records confirm that all of the above named officials ruled in the year A.D. 28. It thus approaches historical certainty that Christ's ministry began in the fall of A.D. 28.

    Our conclusion, therefore, is that Christ's public teaching commenced in the Fall of A.D. 28. The first Passover of His ministry would have then taken place six months later on the fourteenth of Nisan, A.D. 29 (John 2:12-23).

    There is a further confirmation of this thesis that Christ's public ministry began in the fall of A.D. 28. The Apostle John records that while attending this Passover Feast six months later in the Temple, Christ prophesied that He would be killed and would rise again in three days. The Jews did not understand that He was referring to Himself, not the Temple, and replied to Jesus, 'forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?' (John 2:19-20).

    Flavius Josephus. War of the Jews. Kingston: N.G. Ellis, 1844.

    The historical records of that time, including Flavius Josephus in his War of the Jews tell us that Herod the Great began the restoration of the temple in 18 B.C. The year of Christ's first Passover of His public ministry, A.D. 29 is exactly 46 years from the commencement of Herod's restoration program in 18 B.C. (Note: only one year exists between 1.B.C. And A.D. 1).”

    Dr. E.B.Pusey. Daniel The Prophet: The Devonport Society. 1864.

    “Jesus continued His ministry over a period of approzimately three-and-one-half years. Dr. Pusey, in his excellent book, Daniel, on pages 176 and 177, states, 'It seems to me absolutely certain that our Lord's ministry lasted for some period above three years.' According to the Gospel of John, Jesus attended at least three Passovers, and if the Feast mentioned in John 5:1 is also a Passover, then it is certain that the crucifixion occurred on the date of His final Passover in A.D. 32. ... Thus, Christ's ministry extended from the Fall of A.D. 28, three-and-one-half years, to end with His final Passover and crucifixion in A.D. 32.”

  2. Astronomy: The Stars and Constellations

Gen 1:14

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

Psa 19:1-3

“The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth His handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard."


The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
Quick Reply
7 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2011 - 11:46PM #242
Posts: 11,927


6. Lawson, Frederick A. The Star of Bethlehem: DVD. MPower Pictures, Stephen McEveety, 2007.

What Was the Star?
  The Starry Dance

From the website, we can understand 9 attributes of His Star:

What we know about the Star.

  1. It signified birth.

    - Venus – mother planet in conjunction with Jupiter, king planet

    - Virgo – The Virgin, a pregnant woman in labor, giving birth, dragon waiting to devour her child, a son born, Messiah, King of the Jews

    Rev 12:1

    A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre...

    A woman in labor, a dragon bent on infanticide and a ruler of the nations. We have already seen this ruler in the Book of Genesis, above. This would be the Messiah, in his role as King of Kings. If that interpretation is correct, then according to the gospel story the woman would be Mary, the mother of Jesus. The dragon which waits to kill the child at birth would be Herod, who did that very thing. John says the woman he saw was clothed in the Sun. She had the moon at her feet. What can he be describing? When we continue our study of the sky of September of 3 BC, the mystery of John's vision is unlocked: he is describing more of the starry dance which began with the Jewish New Year.

    As Jupiter was beginning the coronation of Regulus, another startling symbol rose in the sky. The constellation which rises in the east behind Leo is Virgo, The Virgin. When Jupiter and Regulus were first meeting, she rose clothed in the Sun. And as John said, the moon was at her feet. It was a new moon, symbolically birthed at the feet of The Virgin.

    The sheer concentration of symbolism in the stars at this moment is remarkable. These things could certainly lead our magus to conclude that a Jewish king had been born. But even this is not the whole story. These symbols could indicate a birth, but if they were interpreted to indicate the time of conception, the beginning of a human life, might there be something interesting in the sky nine months later? Indeed. In June of 2 BC, Jupiter continued the pageantry.

  1. It signified kingship.

    - Jupiter – king planet in conjunction with Regulus, king star in Leo constellation, Judah constellation.

    - Regulus – king star

    - triple conjunction – Jupiter in conjunction with Regulus, in Leo, Judah's constellation, Jupiter in conjunction with Venus in Virgo, the Virgin's constellation.

  2. It had a connection with the Jewish nation.

    - Judah – Lion of the Tribe of Judah

    - Leo, the Lion constellation

    - Messiah of Judah – King David

    - triple conjunction occurred in Leo, the Lion – Judah

    - Gen 49:9

    You are a lion's cub, O Judah; you return from the prey, my son. Like a lion he crouches and lies down, like a lioness-- who dares to rouse him? 10 The sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.”

  1. It rose in the east, like other stars.

    - Jupiter, like all planets, rose in the East (Pole stars don't rise and set at the Middle East latitudes)

  2. It appeared at a precise time.

    - Sept. 3 B.C - Planet Jupiter in conjunction with and, crowning Regulus, King star, in Leo, Judah's, the lion constellation, to June 2 B.C. Planet Venus in conjunction with planet Jupiter in Virgo, the Virgin constellation, with new Moon at Virgo's feet, Jupiter in the South from Jerusalem, over Bethlem, the House of Bread – King David's city.

  3. Herod didn't know when it appeared.

    - only Magi / star knowlegeable knew how to read the stars and constellations

  4. It endured over time.

    - Sept. 3 B.C to Dec. 2 B.C.

  5. It was ahead of the Magi as they went south from Jerusalem to Bethlehem.

    - Dec. 2 B.C.

  6. It stopped over Bethlehem.

    - retrograde motion of the planet, Jupiter.

1.The first conjunction signified birth by its association to the day with Virgo "birthing" the new moon. Some might argue that the unusual triple conjunction by itself could be taken to indicate a new king.

2.The Planet of King's coronation of the Star of Kings signified kingship.

3.The triple conjunction began with the Jewish New Year and took place within Leo, showing a connection with the Jewish tribe of Judah (and prophecies of the Jewish Messiah).

4.Jupiter rises in the east.

5.The conjunctions appeared at precise, identifiable times.

6.Herod was unaware of these things; they were astronomical events which had significance only when explained by experts.

7.The events took place over a span of time sufficient for the Magi to see them both from the East and upon their arrival in Jerusalem.

8.Jupiter was ahead of the Magi as they traveled south from Jerusalem to Bethlehem.

9.Jupiter in retrograde motion against background of moving stars from East to West.


The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
Quick Reply
7 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 11:47AM #243
Posts: 33,858

Really, Iama, you're wasting my time. I have already responded to all the points you raised, and it is unreasonable of you to expect me to respond to them again. If you would take the trouble to read my earlier posts and address them specifically, this discussion could proceed in an orderly and intelligible manner. It would also help if you would stop citing antiquated sources that have long since been debunked. The date of Herod's death is no longer in dispute. He died after a lunar eclipse that took place on March 13, 4 BCE, and his sons dated the beginnings of their reigns from 4 BCE, which they couldn't have done if their father was still alive. We know exactly who the governors of Syria were during the last years of Herod's reign, and Quirinius wasn't one of them. Quirinius became governor of Syria for the first and only time in 6 CE and definitely was not governor of Syria at any earlier date. We know that he conducted a census of Judea in 6-7 CE, when Judea became a province of the Roman empire. This is the earliest possible date that Rome could have conducted a Judean census, because Rome didn't directly tax or administer client kingdoms and consequently did not conduct censuses in them. Those are the hard facts that you must deal with in attempting to reconcile Matthew and Luke. You can't change any of them.

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6 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2011 - 5:50PM #244
Posts: 11,927

iama:  Following are two put-forward replies to Luke's reference to


The Census of Quirinius

Did Luke get it wrong?

by Jonathan Sarfati

Published: 29 December 2011(GMT+10)

During the traditional Christmas season, millions of Christians read the nativity accounts of Matthew and Luke. Luke, great historian as he was, provides information of the timing and circumstances around Jesus’ birth. This connects with the prophecies of the Messiah in the Old Testament, including the timing (Daniel 9) and place (Micah 5:2). Luke 2:1–7 reads:

And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city. Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child. So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. (NKJV)

This passage has been the target for skeptics on several grounds, including the reality and timing of the census, and the need for a journey to Bethlehem. Yet as we have often pointed out, a good rule of thumb is, “the biblioskeptic is always wrong.” So let’s follow the biblical commands of 1 Peter 3:15 and 2 Corinthians 10:5—give reasons for our faith, and demolish opposing arguments.

‘All the world’

Some mock Luke’s phrasing in Luke 2:1: “All the world? Surely Aborigines weren’t included!” This, even in the English translation, is a ridiculously wooden way of reading the text. But the word “world” in this Luke passage is non-universal. As I wrote in Refuting Compromise:

The Greek in this verse is πᾶσαν τὴν οἰκουμένην (pasan tēn oikoumenēn), and it’s the Greek that counts. The basic word translated ‘world’ is οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē), from which we derive the word ‘ecumenical’. Greek scholars recognize that in the New Testament as well as secular Greek literature at the time, oikoumenē was often used to refer to the ‘Roman empire’ only.1 So Caesar Augustus really did initiate a census of all the oikoumenē, i.e., all the Roman Empire (p. 249).

A well regarded commentator on Luke, I. Howard Marshall (1934– ), Professor Emeritus of New Testament Exegesis at the University of Aberdeen, Scotland explains:

ὀικουμένη is ‘the inhabited (world)’, from ὀικέω, ‘to dwell’. It was used of the Roman Empire which was exaggeratedly regarded as equal to the whole world. 2,3

So the NIV is right to render this phrase, “the entire Roman world”.

Census in Quirinius’ time?

Skeptics have argued that Luke got the timing wrong as well. They claim that Quirinius did not become governor until c. 7 AD according to Josephus. Yet according to Matthew’s Gospel, Christ was born before Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC. Supposedly, Luke was misled by a great census performed under Quirinius that was very well known.

But this is an absurd charge: even on the face of it, it is not likely that Luke was simply confused, because he showed that he was well aware of this in Acts 5:37: “Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him.” Here, Luke didn’t even need to say which census was being referred to; his original readers would know perfectly well what “the census” referred to. He also used the same word in Greek for census, ἀπογραφὴ (apographē) as in Luke 2.

There are two main solutions, both recognizing that Luke was aware of the census by Quirinius:

1. This was not the main census of Quirinius, but a first census, which implies at least one more, e.g. great one referred to in Acts. This implies that he twice governed Syria, once around 7 BC and again around AD 7. Sir William Mitchell Ramsay (1851–1939), the archaeologist and professor from Oxford and Cambridge Universities, argued that suggest that Quirinius was twice ruling in Syria on two occasions.4 This was partly based on the Latin Tiburtine Inscription, discovered in 1746, which referred to someone ruling Syria twice, and Ramsay argued that Quirinius fit.5

F.F. Bruce (1910–1990), Ryland professor of Biblical Criticism at the University of Manchester, suggested that the passage should be translated, ‘This enrollment (census) was before that made when Quirinius was governor of Syria.’

Publius Sulpicius Quirinius (51 BC AD 21) was known to be a most able commander, defeating the Homonadenses tribe in Galatia and Cilicia, in what is now the mountains of Turkey. For this, he was awarded a triumph (a ‘triumph’ was a public procession in honor of a great victory), and after he died, he had a public funeral. This was a contrast to the official governor of Syria, Publius Quinctilius Varus (46 BCAD 9). Varus was known to be a brutal man, who imposed confiscatory taxes and crucified 2000 Jewish rebels. More importantly, he is now infamous for leading three whole roman legions to annihilation in the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in AD 9—the clades Variana or Varian disaster.

Caesar Augustus (63 BC AD 14), a good judge of character, may have realized that Varus was not the man to oversee a census. So under this scenario, Augustus appointed Quirinius to perform this duty—Cilicia, the scene of his triumph, was annexed to the province of Syria around this time. The Greek phrase is ἡγεμονεύοντος τῆς Συρίας Κυρηνίου (hegemoneuontos tes Syrias Kyreniou6), which uses a verb participle based on the word hegemon, a lower official title than Governor (“Legate”).

Thus biblical scholar Gleason Archer (1916–2004) suggests:

In order to secure efficiency and dispatch, it may well have been that Augustus put Quirinius in charge of the census-enrollment in Syria between the close of Saturninus’s administration and the beginning of Varus’s term of service in 7 BC. It was doubtless because of his competent handling of the 7 BC census that Augustus later put him in charge of the 7 AD census.7

2. This was not Quirinius’ census at all, but a census before Quirinius’, aka “the census”. The New Testament scholar N.T. Wright argues that πρῶτος (prōtos) not only means ‘first’, but when followed by the genitive can mean ‘before’ (cf. John 1:15, 15:18).8 Wright’s view also has quite a lot of scholarly support, although not universal.9

For example, F.F. Bruce (1910–1990), Ryland professor of Biblical Criticism at the University of Manchester, suggested that the passage should be translated, “This enrollment (census) was before that made when Quirinius was governor of Syria.” Harold Hoehner (1935–2009), Distinguished Professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary, suggested that the passage should read, “This census was before that [census] when Quirinius was governor of Syria”10 Therefore the census around the time of Christ’s birth was one which took place before Quirinius was governing Syria, of which Luke was well aware, as shown above.


The journey to Bethlehem

Some have questioned the account because they believe that it’s implausible that a heavily pregnant woman would be forced to travel so far. First of all, distances in Israel are tiny; before 1967, the modern state was only 9 miles wide, or half the width of the Washington Beltway. It is quite a bit longer, but still, the distance that Jesus’ mother and adoptive father travelled was only about 70 miles. Also, Mary might not have been so heavy; the text just says, “while they were there”, Jesus was born, nothing about being born the night they arrived.

But still, that seems like a lot of trouble to go to. But Luke explained why: the rule was that people had to go to their own place. And as usual, archaeological discoveries have vindicated Luke.

Early in the twentieth century, a papyrus was discovered dating from about AD 104. This contained an edict by Gauis Vibius Maximus, the Roman governor of Egypt, stating:

Since the enrollment by households is approaching, it is necessary to command all who for any reason are out of their own district to return to their own home, in order to perform the usual business of the taxation …

This even used the same word, apographē, translated above as “enrollment”, as Luke used for “census”.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia comments:

For example, a British Museum decree of Gaius Vibius Maximus, prefect of Egypt (C.E. 104), ordered all who were out of their districts to return to their homes in view of the approaching census (cf. Lk. 2:1–5).11

This mainly concerned migrant workers, but Raymond E. Brown (1928–1998), no evangelical, suggested that it had a wider context for Jews, who took their genealogies seriously:

One cannot rule out the possibility that, since Romans often adapted their administration to local circumstances, a census conducted in Judea would respect the strong attachment of Jewish tribal and ancestral relationships.12

Since the enrollment by households is approaching, it is necessary to command all who for any reason are out of their own district to return to their own home, in order to perform the usual business of the taxation… — Gauis Vibius Maximus, the Roman governor of Egypt, AD 104

There are other intriguing papyri that back up Luke’s account. Here is one from a father’s point of view, about his family:

I register Pakebkis, the son born to me and Taas­ies daughter of … and Taopis in the 10th year of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator [Emperor], and request that the name of my aforesaid son Pakebkis be entered on the list … .13

This shows that family registration was a fact of life for Roman subjects.


The evidence backs up what Ramsay wrote after a lifetime of archaeological research on the New Testament:

I take the view that Luke’s history is unsurpassed in regard to his trustworthiness … . You may press the words of Luke in a degree beyond any other historian’s and they stand the keenest scrutiny and the hardest treatment.14

And like a good historian, Luke gives us details that allow us to place the Incarnation at a specific point in history. For him, the theological and the historical were inseparably connected, which is a good reason for us to take both seriously.

‘Local flood?

Some compromisers use this “all the world” in Luke 2:1 to attack the global Flood taught in Genesis, to teach instead a local flood to fit uniformitarian science. They argue that obviously Augustus never decreed that that literally the whole world would be registered—obviously, his reach never extended to Australia. So, they argue, neither did Noah’s Flood need to cover the whole globe.

In response, first, the word for “world”, οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē), was non-universal, and meant the Roman Empire, as shown in the main article. Second, no one doubts that “all” (Hebrew כּל kol in the Genesis account), may have a non-universal sense in some cases. But in Genesis 7:19, the language is much more emphatic, to remove all possibility of a local flood. “And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all (kol) the high mountains under the whole (kol) heaven were covered.” Leupold points out, “A double ‘all’ (kol) cannot allow for so relative a sense. It almost constitutes a Hebrew superlative. So we believe that the text disposes of the question of the universality of the Flood.”15 Leupold comments on cases like Luke, “However, we still insist that this fact could overthrow a single kol, never a double kol, as our verse has it.”

Related articles

Further reading


  1. BDAG, οἰκουμένη, definition 2, listing the examples Acts 17:6 and Acts 24:5. [Bauer, W., Danker, F.W., Arndt, W.F. and Gingrich, F.W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. Chicago/London: University of Chicago Press, 2000]. Return to text.
  2. Marshall, I.H., The Gospel of Luke: A Commentary on the Greek Text, p. 98, Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1978. Return to text.
  3. Marshall cites TDNT V, 157 n. 1. [Kittel, G. and Friedrich, G. (ed.), Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (translated by G.W. Bromiley), Grand Rapids, 1964–76] Return to text.
  4. Ramsay, W.M., Was Christ born at Bethlehem? 1898. Return to text.
  5. Marshall, Ref. 2, p. 103. Return to text.
  6. The KJV uses the Latin transliteration, Cyrenius, of the Greek form, Κυρηνίος, of the Latin name, Quirinius—a real case of loss of information in the translation back and forth. Return to text.
  7. Archer, Gleason L., Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, p. 366, Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI, 1982. Return to text.
  8. Wright, Who was Jesus? p. 89, Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge (SPCK), Great Britain, 1992. Return to text.
  9. Jared Compton, a Ph.D. student in New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, summarized the pros and cons in Once More: Quirinius’s Census, Detroit Baptist Theological Journal, Fall 2009, pp. 45–54; Return to text.
  10. Hoenher, H., Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, p. 21, Zondervan, 1978. Return to text.
  11. Bromiley, Geoffrey W, ed., The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 655, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1995. Return to text.
  12. Brown, R.E., The Birth of the Messiah: A Commentary on the Infancy Narratives in Matthew and Luke, p. 549, Doubleday, NY, p. 549, 1993. Return to text.
  13. Grenfell B.P. and Hunt, A.S., eds., The Tebtunis papyri: Part II, Egypt Exploration Society, Greco-Roman branch, p. 84, Oxford Iniversity Press, 1907. Return to text.
  14. William M. Ramsay, Luke, The Physician, Hodder & Stoughton, London, 1908, pp. 177–179. Return to text.
  15. Leupold, H.C., Exposition of Genesis 1:301–302, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, USA, 1942; Return to text.

The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
Quick Reply
6 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2011 - 7:14PM #245
Posts: 33,858

Dec 31, 2011 -- 5:50PM, iamachildofhis wrote:

Following are two put-forward replies to Luke's reference to Quirinius:

This is a complete waste of time. I have already responded to all the points raised. That is why I ask you to specifically address all my specific points. In other words, you need to directly quote what I have written and present specific objections to it. I want you to reply to me, which is standard procedure in a debate forum.

By the way, I must decline to read anything by the fraudulent Sarfati. If you have anything from qualified mainstream scholars, I will be happy to read it.

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2012 - 8:17PM #246
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2012 - 7:02PM #247
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I guess the answer is no, she doesn't have anything by any qualified scholars.

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 9:37PM #248
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The Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia article

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2013 - 10:32AM #249
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Safarti huh?
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2013 - 5:48PM #250
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Wasn't he the Inspiration for that wonderful Beach Boys Song, "Surfin' Safarti" ... ???

Jan 20, 2013 -- 10:32AM, EarthScientist wrote:

Safarti huh?

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