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3 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2011 - 2:07PM #231
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,690

Aug 21, 2011 -- 9:27AM, Ken wrote:



iama: Where was Quirinius in 4 B.C.?


Ken: Galatia.




iama:  What is your resource for Quirinius being in Galatia in 4 B.C.?


I found the following in an article related to archaeological findings supporting the New Testament at the following link:


Does Archaeology Support the New Testament?


"Sir William Ramsay, considered one of  the greatest archaeologists to have ever lived, was trained in a German  historical school in the mid-nineteenth century. He had been taught that  Acts was written in the mid-second century AD, and as a result, set out  to prove such. His conclusions were a complete reversal, admitting that  he had found overwhelming evidence in his research which confirmed the  reliability and veracity of the New Testament, specifically the works of  Dr. Luke."



"Many have raised an issue regarding the census that took place at the time of Jesus’ birth. As put by Clifford Wilson, “Problems  about the census at the time of our Lord’s birth have been resolved by  the findings of important papyrus documents. These documents were found  in Egypt inside sacred, embalmed crocodiles. The documents were the  Jewish priestly writings that were written immediately before, during,  and just after New Testament times. The excavators Granfell and Hunt  reported that their evidence showed that this was the first census (poll  tax – enrollment) that took place in the time of Quirinius. (Another  inscription has shown that Qurinius was in Syria twice – first as a  military leader at the time of civil unrest, and later as Governor of  Syria.) The census was probably delayed in Palestine because of that  civil unrest.“[11]



Wilson continues, “The  papyri from those Egyptian ‘talking crocodiles’ have demonstrated that  the New Testament documents are remarkable records of the times claimed  for them in the language of ‘everyday’ people. Those everyday  expressions from Paul’s time have also thrown much light on Paul’s  writings themselves.“[12]"


 


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The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
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"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
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Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2011 - 3:31PM #232
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Aug 21, 2011 -- 2:07PM, iamachildofhis wrote:

What is your resource for Quirinius being in Galatia in 4 B.C.?


Barbara Levick, "The Homanadensian War," Roman Colonies in Southern Asia Minor, 1967, pp. 203-14.


Ronald Syme, "Galatia and Pamphylia under  Augustus: The Governorship of Piso, Quirinius and Silvanus," Klio 1934, pp. 122-148; "The Titulus Tiburtinus," Roman Papers, vol. 3, Anthony Birley, ed., 1984, p. 876.


"As put by Clifford Wilson, 'Problems  about the census at the time of our Lord’s birth have been resolved by  the findings of important papyrus documents. These documents were found  in Egypt inside sacred, embalmed crocodiles. The documents were the  Jewish priestly writings that were written immediately before, during,  and just after New Testament times. The excavators Granfell and Hunt  reported that their evidence showed that this was the first census (poll  tax – enrollment) that took place in the time of Quirinius. (Another  inscription has shown that Qurinius was in Syria twice – first as a  military leader at the time of civil unrest, and later as Governor of  Syria.) The census was probably delayed in Palestine because of that  civil unrest.'



This is all very unscholarly. I need an exact citation for these documents that Grenfell (not Granfell) and Hunt supposedly found inside sacred crocodiles. What do they actually say? If they say that a Judean census was first held when Quirinius was governor of Syria, we already knew that. It took place in 6 CE. Grenfell and Hunt are best known for discovering the Oxyrhynchus papyri, all of which have been catalogued and published.


What is this inscription that supposedly shows that Quirinius was in Syria twice? It's quite likely that Quirinius was assigned a Syrian legion to help him defeat the Homanadenses in Galatia, but that does not place Quirinius in Syria as a military leader. On the contrary, it places the Syrian legion in Galatia under Quirinius' leadership. Although four legions were normally assigned to Syria, we know that in 4 BCE the governor of Syria - Quintilius Varus - had only three legions at his disposal. What happened to the fourth legion? The only military action at the time that would explain its absence is the Homanadensian War.

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2011 - 9:58PM #233
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,690

Aug 21, 2011 -- 3:31PM, Ken wrote:



iama: What is your resource for Quirinius being in Galatia in 4 B.C.?


Ken: Barbara Levick, "The Homanadensian War," Roman Colonies in Southern Asia Minor, 1967, pp. 203-14.


Ronald Syme, "Galatia and Pamphylia under  Augustus: The Governorship of Piso, Quirinius and Silvanus," Klio 1934, pp. 122-148; "The Titulus Tiburtinus," Roman Papers, vol. 3, Anthony Birley, ed., 1984, p. 876.



quote from iama: "As put by Clifford Wilson, 'Problems  about the census at the time of our Lord’s birth have been resolved by  the findings of important papyrus documents. These documents were found  in Egypt inside sacred, embalmed crocodiles. The documents were the  Jewish priestly writings that were written immediately before, during,  and just after New Testament times. The excavators Granfell and Hunt  reported that their evidence showed that this was the first census (poll  tax – enrollment) that took place in the time of Quirinius. (Another  inscription has shown that Qurinius was in Syria twice – first as a  military leader at the time of civil unrest, and later as Governor of  Syria.) The census was probably delayed in Palestine because of that  civil unrest.'



Ken:  This is all very unscholarly. I need an exact citation for these documents that Grenfell (not Granfell) and Hunt supposedly found inside sacred crocodiles. What do they actually say? If they say that a Judean census was first held when Quirinius was governor of Syria, we already knew that. It took place in 6 CE. Grenfell and Hunt are best known for discovering the Oxyrhynchus papyri, all of which have been catalogued and published.


What is this inscription that supposedly shows that Quirinius was in Syria twice? It's quite likely that Quirinius was assigned a Syrian legion to help him defeat the Homanadenses in Galatia, but that does not place Quirinius in Syria as a military leader. On the contrary, it places the Syrian legion in Galatia under Quirinius' leadership. Although four legions were normally assigned to Syria, we know that in 4 BCE the governor of Syria - Quintilius Varus - had only three legions at his disposal. What happened to the fourth legion? The only military action at the time that would explain its absence is the Homanadensian War.




iama:  The following were gleaned from my research:


 I. Chronology of the       Life of Jesus


"The current Christian era is reckoned from the birth of Jesus and is based upon the calculations of Dionysius (6th century). Subsequent investigation has shown that the Dionysian date is at least four years too late. Several eras were in use in the time of Jesus; but of these only the Varronian will be used coordinately with the Dionysian in the discussion of the chronology of the life of Jesus, 753 A. U. C. being synchronous with 1 BC and 754 A. U. C. with 1 A. D."


 


1. Birth of Jesus

"Jesus was born before the death of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1) at the time of a census or enrollment made in the territory of Herod in accordance with a decree of Augustus when Quirinius (Revised Version; Cyrenius, the King James Version) was exercising authority in the Roman province of Syria (Luke 2:1).

At the time of Jesus' birth a star led the Magi of the East to seek in Jerusalem the infant whom they subsequently found in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1).

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus (Luke 1:36) and he was born in the days of Herod (Luke 1:5; compare Luke 2:1) after his father, Zacharias, of the priestly course of Abijah, had been performing the functions of his office in the temple.

(1) Death of Herod

The death of Herod the Great occurred in the spring of 750/4. (NOTE:

The alternative numbers are BC or AD, i. e, 750 A. U. C. = 4 BC, etc.) He ruled from his appointment in Rome 714/40 (Ant., XIV, xiv, 4-5, in the consulship of Caius Domitius Calvinus and Caius Asinius Pollio) 37 years, and from his accession in Jerusalem after the capture of the city 717/37 (Ant.,. XIV, xvi, 1-3; BJ, I, xvii, 9; I, xviii, 1-3; Dio Cassius xlix.22; compare Schurer, GJV3, I, 358, note 11) 34 years (Ant , XVII, xviii, 1; BJ, I, xxxiii, 7-8; compare Schurer, op. cit., I, 415, note 167 where it is shown that Josephus reckons a year too much, probably counting from Nisan 1 and including partial years). Just before Herod's death there was an eclipse of the moon (Ant., XVII, vi, 4). According to astronomical calculations an eclipse was visible in Palestine on March 23 and September 15, 749/5, March 12, 750/4 and January 9, 753/1. Of these the most probable is that of March 12, 750/4. Soon after the eclipse Herod put to death his son Antipater and died five days later (Ant., XVII, vii; BJ, I, xxxiii, 7).


Shortly after Herod's death the Passover was near at hand. (Ant., XVII, vi, 4 through ix, 3). In this year Passover (Nisan 15) fell on April 11; and as Archelaus had observed seven days of mourning for his father before this, Herod's death would fall between March 17 and April 4. But as the 37th (34th) year of his reign was probably reckoned from Nisan 1 or March 28, his death may be dated between March 28 and April 4, 750/4.

This date for Herod's death is confirmed by the evidence for the duration of the reigns of his three sons. Archelaus was deposed in 759/6 (Dio Cassius lv.27 in the consulship of Aemilius Lepidus and Lucius Arruntius) in the 10th year of his reign (Ant., XVII, xiii, 2; compare BJ, II, vii, 3 which gives the year as the 9th). Antipas was deposed most probably in the summer of 792/39 (Ant., XVIII, vii, 1-2; compare XVIII, vi, 11; XIX, viii, 2; BJ, II, ix, 6; Schurer, op. cit., I, 448, note 46 and 416, note 167). There are coins of Antipas from his 43rd year (Madden, Coins of the Jews, 121). The genuineness of a coin from the 44th year is questioned by Schurer but accepted by Madden. The coin from the 45th year is most probably spurious (Schurer, op. cit., I, 417, note 167). Philip died after reigning 37 years, in the 20th year of Tiberius--August 19, 786/33-787/34 (Ant., XVIII, iv, 6). There is also a coin of Philip from his 37th year (Madden, op. cit., 126). Thus Archelaus, Antipas and Philip began to reign in 750/4.

(2) Census of Quirinius

The census or enrollment, which, according to Luke 2:1, was the occasion of the journey of Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem where Jesus was born, is connected with a decree of Augustus embracing the Greek-Roman world. This decree must have been carried out in Palestine by Herod and probably in accordance with the Jewish method-- each going to his own city--rather than the Roman (Dig. 15, 4, 2; Zumpt, Das Geburtsjahr Christi, 195; Kenyon, Greek Papyri in the British Museum, III, 124; Schurer, Theol. Ztg, 1907, 683; and on the other hand, Ramsay, Expositor, 1908, I, 19, note).

Certainly there is no intimation of an insurrection such as characterized a later census (Acts 5:37; Ant, XVIII, i, 1; BJ, II, xvii, 7; compare Tac. Ann. vi.41; Livy Epit. cxxxvi, cxxxvii; Dessau, Inscrip. lat. Sel. number 212, col. ii, 36) and this may have been due in no small measure to a difference in method. Both Josephus and Luke mention the later census which was made by Quirinius on the deposition of Archelaus, together with the insurrection of Judas which accompanied it. But while Josephus does not mention the Herodian census--although there may be some intimation of it in Ant, XVI, ix, 3; XVII, ii, 4; compare Sanclemente, De vulg. aerae emend., 438; Ramsay, Was Christ Born at Beth.1, 178--Luke carefully distinguishes the two, characterizing the census at the time of Jesus' birth as "first," i.e. first in a series of enrollments connected either with Quirinius or with the imperial policy inaugurated by the decree of Augustus.

The Greek- Roman writers of the time do not mention this decree and later writers (Cassiodor, Isidor and Suidas) cannot be relied upon with certainty as independent witnesses (Zumpt, Geburtsjahr, 148). Yet the geographical work of Agrippa and the preparation of a breviarium totius imperil by Augustus (Tac. Ann. i.11; Suet. Aug. 28 and 101; Dio Cassius liii.30; lvi.33; compare Mommsen, Staatsrecht, II, 1025, note 3), together with the interest of the emperor in the organization and finances of the empire and the attention which he gave to the provinces (Marquardt, Rom. Staatsverwaltung, II, 211; compare 217), are indirectly corroborative of Luke's statement. Augustus himself conducted a census in Italy in 726/28, 746/8, 767/14 (Mommsen, Res Ges., 34) and in Gaul in 727/27 (Dio Cassius liii.22, 5; Livy Epit. cxxxiv) and had a census taken in other provinces (Pauly-Wissowa, Realencyc., under the word "Census," 1918; Marquardt, op. cit., II, 213). For Egypt there is evidence of a regular p eriodic census every 14 years extending back to 773/20 (Ramsay, op. cit., 131 if; Grenfell and Hunt, Oxy. Papyri, II, 207; Wilcken, Griech. Ostraka, I, 444) and it is not improbable that this procedure was introduced by Augustus (Schurer, op. cit., I, 515). The inference from Egyptian to similar conditions in other provinces must indeed be made cautiously (Wilcken, op. cit., 449; Marquardt, op. cit., 441); yet in Syria the regular tributum capitis seems to imply some such preliminary work (Dig, 1. 15, 3; Appian, Syriac., 50; Marquardt, op. cit., II, 200, note 2; Pauly-Wissowa, op. cit., 1921; Ramsay, op. cit., 154).

The time of the decree is stated only in general terms by Luke, and it may have been as early as 727/27 (Zumpt, op. cit., 159; Marquardt, op. cit., II, 212) or later in 746-8 (Huschke, Census, 34; Ramsay, op. cit., 158), its execution in different provinces and subject kingdoms being carried out at different times. Hence, Luke dates the census in the kingdom of Herod specifically by connecting it with the administrative functions of Quirinius in Syria. But as P. Quintilius Varus was the legate of Syria just before and after the death of Herod from 748/6-750/4 (Ant., XVII, v, 2; XVII, ix., 3; XVII, x, 1 and 9; XVII, xi, 1; Tac. Hist. v.9; and coins in Eckhel, Doctr. num. vet., III, 275) and his predecessor Was C. Sentius Saturninus from 745/9-748/6 (Ant; XVI, ix, 1; x, 8; xi, 3; XVII, i, 1; ii, 1; iii, 2), there seems to be no place for Quirinius during the closing years of Herod's reign. Tertullian indeed speaks of Saturninus as legate at the time of Jesus' birth (Adv. Marc., iv.9). The interpretation of Luke's statement as indicating a date for the census before Quirinius was legate (Wieseler, Chron. Syn., 116; Lagrange, Revue Biblique, 1911, 80) is inadmissible. It is possible that the connection of the census with Quirinius may be due to his having brought to completion what was begun by one of his predecessors; or Quirinius may have been commissioned especially by the emperor as legatus ad census accipiendos to conduct a census in Syria and this commission may have been connected temporally with his campaign against the Homonadenses in Cilicia (Tac. Ann. iii.48; compare Noris, Cenotaph. Pis., 320; Sanclemente, op. cit., 426 passim; Ramsay, op. cit., 238). It has also been suggested by Bour (L'Inscription de Quirinius, 48) that Quirinius may have been an imperial procurator specially charged with authority in the matter of the Herodian census. The titulus Tiburtinus (CIL, XIV, 3613; Dessau, Inscr. Latin Sel., 918)--if rightly assigned to him--and there seems to be no sufficient reason for questioning the conclusiveness of Mommsen's defense of this attribution (compare Liebenam, Verwaltungsgesch., 365)--proves that he was twice legate of Syria, and the titulus Venetus (CIL, III, 6687; Dessau, op. cit., 2683) gives evidence of a census conducted by him in Syria. His administration is dated by Ramsay (op. cit., 243) in 747/7; by Mommsen in the end of 750/4 or the beginning of 751/3 (op. cit., 172). Zahn (Neue kirch. Zeitschr., 1893, IV, 633), followed by Spitta (Zeitschr. f. d. neutest. Wiss., 1906, VII, 293), rejects the historicity of the later census connected by Josephus with the deposition of Archelaus, basing his view on internal grounds, and assigns the Lucan census to a time shortly after the death of Herod. This view however is rendered improbable by the evidence upon which the birth of Jesus is assigned to a time before the death of Herod (Matthew 2:1; Luke 1:5; 2:1); by the differentiation of the census in Luke 2:1 f and Acts 5:37; by the definite connection of the census in Josephus with Syria and the territory of Archelaus (compare also the tit. Venet.); and by the general imperial policy in the formation of a new province (Marquardt, op. cit., II, 213). Moreover there seems to be no adequate ground for identifying the Sabinus of Josephus with Quirinius as urged by Weber, who regards the two accounts (Ant., XVII, viii, 1 and XVII, iv, 5; XVIII, i, 2; ii, 1) as due to the separation by Josephus of parallel accounts of the same events in his sources (Zeitschr. f. d. neutest. Wiss., 1909, X, 307)--the census of Sabinus-Quirinius being assigned to 4 BC, just after the death of Herod the Great. The synchronism of the second census of Quirinius with the periodic year of the Egyptian census is probably only a coincidence, for it was occasioned by the deposition of Archelaus; but its extension to Syria may be indicative of its connection with the imperial policy inaugurated by Augustus (Tac. Ann. vi.41; Ramsay, op. cit., 161 f)."


 



I. Egyptian Rubbish-Heaps and the Study of the New Testament


 



Now let me mention in a word or two what we may get from the more definitely official forms and papers. I want to speak especially of one point. A large number of the papyri are census papers. You will remember how there has been for many years past serious difficulty about a noteworthy verse in the Gospel of Luke, in the second chapter. That chapter begins, as you know, with the statement that in those days there went forth a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the inhabitants of the world - that is, of the Roman Empire - should be enrolled in a census. `This was the first enrolment made when Quirinius was governor of Syria' (Luke 2:2). Fifty years ago historians who read those words were forced to say that they contained almost as many mistakes as it was possible to get into two lines. Even those who were most unwilling to admit that Luke had made such mistakes found themselves obliged to have recourse to conjectures which, I am afraid, sounded much like special pleading. But the explanation some of us kept hoping for has come, and come mainly through the papyri.


First came the proof, from the masses of census papers found among our new sources, that every fourteen years there was a general enrolment. For, fortunately, the papers are dated. This is their normal style: `In the year so and so of the Emperor so and so' - then would follow the whole string of his titles - `I, A. B., son of C. D., aged x years, with a straight nose, black hair, scar on my right shin, enroll myself, together with E. F., my wife, aged y years,' and so on, with name and description of each person. The census paper would proceed further with a statement of effects. They had twenty sheep, two camels, and their house faced a particular street on the south, and adjoined somebody's garden on the west, and so forth.


It is reasonable to assume that as Egypt was under the Imperial Roman Government at that time, there was a similar fourteen years' census taken in other parts of the world. Now we know that there was a census taken in the year A.D. 6. We actually possess a census paper from the census of A.D. 34, and probably one from A.D. 20. [We also possess papers from 48 A.D. and 104 A.D.]


The only thing we have to conjecture - and it becomes highly reasonable to conjecture now - is that not only was there one in the year A.D. 6, but that there was also one in the year 8 B.C., which on other grounds has become a more and more probable date for the birth of Jesus.


Now for Luke's second `blunder,' for there were three chief blunders attributed to him. It was regarded as certain that if there was a census people did not have to go up to any ancestral town for it. Well, but we have now got two or three pages from a Roman official's letter-book, dated A.D. 104, and in it we read a rescript from the prefect of Egypt ordering that all people are to go back to the county in which they live within the next six weeks in order to be ready for the census. Exit blunder number two!


What about blunder number three? Quirinius was governor of Syria in the year A.D. 6. We know that, and he carried out the census in that year. Therefore, it is a blunder when Luke tells us that he was looking after a census somewhere about 8 B.C. Moreover, we actually know the name of the man who was governor of Syria in that year, and it is not Quirinius. But about a couple of years ago Sir William Ramsay dug up a stone which shows that Quirinius was in Syria at that time after all. He had been sent there especially, as an extraordinary commissioner, to look after the census, which was a new thing and likely to be unpopular. I suppose it was because he did such good work that he was sent to the job again when the next fourteen years were over. So you see how with the aid of these rubbish-heaps of Egypt and the stones of Asia Minor we can show what an excellent historian Luke was after all."


iama:  The history of Jesus' birth needs to include all of the following times from Matthew's Gospel, also:


Mat 2:12-23
"And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way. "And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and His mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy Him. When he arose, he took the young child and His mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called My Son. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not. But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, Saying, Arise, and take the young child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene."


 


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The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
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"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
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Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2011 - 10:32PM #234
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Please don't copy and paste huge quantities of text. I can't wade through all that. Quote the specific points I have made and make specific responses to them. When I ask questions - as I did in my last post - please answer them. It helps to be methodical.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2011 - 1:58PM #235
Ken
Posts: 33,859

I'm still waiting.


Do you wish to concede the debate?

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2011 - 3:08PM #236
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Still waiting.


I hope you realize that your entire claim for Biblical inerrancy rests upon this issue. If you cannot reconcile the birthdates in Matthew and Luke, you can no longer claim that the Bible is inerrant.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 17, 2011 - 12:09PM #237
Ken
Posts: 33,859

I think two months is long enough to wait for a defense of Biblical inerrancy. We may consider this debate concluded. Biblical inerrancy fails.


Of course, we always knew it would.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 23, 2011 - 3:03AM #238
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,690

Oct 17, 2011 -- 12:09PM, Ken wrote:



I think two months is long enough to wait for a defense of Biblical inerrancy. We may consider this debate concluded. Biblical inerrancy fails.


Of course, we always knew it would.




iama:  Doing research,


1. I found out that Luke was from Antioch, Syria.  So, Luke was well aware of Quirinius' activities in Syria. 


2.  Matthew states that Jesus was born in Bethlehem:


Mat 2:1    
"Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,..."


3. Matthew states, above, that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great.


4. When the wise men from the East found Jesus, he and his family were in a house in Bethlehem.


Mat 2:11          
"And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped Him:..


5.  Jesus may have been 2 years old at the time of the wise men's visit.


Mat 2:16    
"Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men."


6. Jesus was taken to Egypt when He may have been ~2 years of age. But, the wise men may have see "His star rising in the East," at the time of His conception, and not His birth.


Mat 2:13    
"And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to  Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his  mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word:  for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him."


7.  Jesus' family remained in Egypt until the death of Herod the Great.


Mat 2:19    
"But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, Saying, Arise, and take the young Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.


8. Herod's son, Archelaus was reigning in Judaea when Joseph returned from Egypt with Jesus.


But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene."


9. Matthew records, above, that Joseph took his family to Nazareth.


10.  The "star" could have appeared at the time of Jesus' conception. The "star" could have moved into a different constellation, signifying the birth of a Jewish King, subsequently. The wise men gave Herod a date of ~2 years.  So, Jesus could have been 1.5 - 2 years at the time of the wise men's visit.  The time in Egypt could have been several years, also, so Jesus could have been ~4 or 5 by the time that the family returned to Nazareth.  Archelaus was ruling in Judaea at the time of their return.  So, of the three eclipse dates


 


11. Luke records that Nazareth was Joseph and Mary's "own city."



Luk 2:4          


"And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)


Luk 2:39


"And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth."



Luk 1:26-27          
"And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary."


11. So, there is no discrepancy between Matthew and Luke concerning Joseph and Mary's home in Nazareth.  There, therefore, must be an explanation for why they went to Bethlehem.


 


12. From my research, biblical scholars and historians differ about...:


There is disagreement about when which of the eclipses Josephus was referring to at the time of Herod's death.


There is disagreement as to when Herod the Great died.


There is disagreement about when Quirinius was governor in Syria.


There is disagreement about when a census occurred in Syria, in Judaea, in Augustus' reign.


There is disagreement about requiring journeys to ancestor's home territory.


 


13. To settle some of these puzzles, the dates given in The Bible by the Gospel recorders are noted, some include:


 


John the Baptist was 6 months older than his cousin, Jesus, and he likely began his public minestry ~30 years of age, too. 


Luk 3:1    
"Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness."


14. Jesus was ~30 years of age at the time John the Baptizer baptized Him in the river Jordan.


Luk 3:22          
"And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age,..."


15. Quirinius, governor of Syria, still needs to be further dealt with.


Luk 2:1    
"And it came to pass in those days, that there  went out a decree from  Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be  taxed. ([And] this taxing  was first made when Cyrenius was governor of  Syria.) And all went to be  taxed, every one into his own city."


New Testament Timeline


or Quirinius may have been commissioned especially by the emperor as legatus ad census accipiendos to conduct a census in Syria and this commission may have been connected temporally with his campaign against the Homonadenses in Cilicia (Tac. Ann. iii.48; compare Noris, Cenotaph. Pis., 320; Sanclemente, op. cit., 426 passim; Ramsay, op. cit., 238).


16. Josephus recorded that there was an eclipse of the moon. There are 4 choices:


Just before Herod's death there was an eclipse of the moon (Ant., XVII, vi, 4). According to astronomical calculations an eclipse was visible in Palestine on March 23 and September 15, 749/5, March 12, 750/4 and January 9, 753/1. Of these the most probable is that of March 12, 750/4. Soon after the eclipse Herod put to death his son Antipater and died five days later (Ant., XVII, vii; BJ, I, xxxiii, 7).


17. Herod the Great may have died earlier than 4 B.C, or later.


18. The research done by the DVD, The Star of Bethlehem, places Christ Jesus' birth ~1 B.C.


The Star of Bethlehem


 


I am still researching....


 


.


.


 

The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
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"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
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Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 23, 2011 - 9:35AM #239
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Oct 23, 2011 -- 3:03AM, iamachildofhis wrote:


There is disagreement as to when Herod the Great died.


There is disagreement about when Quirinius was governor in Syria.


There is disagreement about when a census occurred in Syria, in Judaea, in Augustus' reign.



These are the pertinent issues. Historians don't disagree about any of them. Herod the Great died in 4 BCE; Quirinius governed Syria from 6 to 12 CE; and no census was held in Judea until 6 CE.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2011 - 11:30PM #240
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,690

Oct 23, 2011 -- 9:35AM, Ken wrote:



iama: There is disagreement as to when Herod the Great died.


There is disagreement about when Quirinius was governor in Syria.


There is disagreement about when a census occurred in Syria, in Judaea, in Augustus' reign.


Ken: These are the pertinent issues. Historians don't disagree about any of them. Herod the Great died in 4 BCE; Quirinius governed Syria from 6 to 12 CE; and no census was held in Judea until 6 CE.



iama: There are / were several historical resources which are / were available to resolve this historical event's date (The birth date of the birth of Christ Jesus):


1. The Bible: Matthew's Gospel


Matthew 1:18


Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins."


    Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


    (Birth of Christ Jesus - 9 months after conception by Holy Spirit: June 2 B.C.)


    Matthew 2


    Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,


    Wise Men arrive in Jerusalem: December 2 B.C.


    "Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen His star in the east, and are come to worship Him.


    (They began to see His Star in the East - Conception of Christ Jesus: September 3 B.C.)


    3. When Herod the king had heard [these things], he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.


    (Only the Magi - star gazers - were aware of the signs in the stars / planets and constellations.)


    4. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.


    (Herod has two questions which concern him: where was He born? when was He born?)


    5. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,


    6. And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule My people Israel.


    7. Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.


    8. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found [Him], bring me word again, that I may come and worship Him also.


    9. When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was.


    (The Wise Men left Jerusalem and headed for Bethlehem that night: December 2 B.C. )


    10. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.


    11. And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped Him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.


    12. And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.


    13. And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy Him.


    (Jesus' family leaves for Egypt: December 2 B.C.)


    14. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:


    15. And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called My Son.


    16. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.


    (Murder of Bethlehem's children 0-2 years: December 2 B.C.)


    17. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,


    18. In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.


    (Death of Herod: January 9, 1 B.C. - full eclipse of the moon )


    19. But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt.


    20. Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.


    21. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.


    22. But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:


    (King Herod is dead: Archelaus reigns in Judaea: 1 B.C.)


    23. And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene."


    (Joseph, Mary and Jesus live in Nazareth: 1 B.C. Onward)



    .

    The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
    .
    "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
    .
    Justice is receiving what you deserve.
    Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
    Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
    .
    Quick Reply
    Cancel
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