Jul 27, 2011 -- 7:13PM, Ken wrote:

Ken: Iama?

iama: We have had family visiting and we have, also, been away.  I will get to a reply when I have time to reply from research!  It may take a few weeks. We are off again.

.

Aug 6, 2011 -- 2:31PM, Ken wrote:

Iama: We have had family visiting and we have, also, been away.  I will get to a reply when I have time to reply from research!  It may take a few weeks. We are off again.

Ken: Don't waste your time. All the research has already been done, and it will never be possible to harmonize Matthew wih Luke. The death of Herod is firmly pinned to 4 BCE; the census of Quirinius to 6 CE. It is impossible for anyone born before the death of Herod to also be born during the census. It is possible that both Matthew and Luke are wrong, but impossible for both of them to be right. At least one of them must be wrong, and a single error is enough to disprove Biblical inerrancy.

iama:  I know that Luke has his history correctly written. I am perusing this for your benefit.

This is Ussher's retrieved data from [Tacitus, Annals 1.1.c.11.3:267] {Suetonius, Augustus, 1.2.c.101.s.4.1:309}. This is listed under the heading, 4000a AM,4709 JP, 5 BC, in Ussher's book, The Annuls of the World:

"6051 Augustus ordered that all the Roman world should be taxed. This taxing first happened when Cyrenius was governor of Syria. {Lu 2:1} From this, a little book was made by Augustus, containing all the public riches, as well as the number of roman citizens and armed allies. It listed the navies, kingdoms and provinces, and it recorded what tribute and customs were required to be paid."

.

Aug 16, 2011 -- 9:22AM, Ken wrote:

iama: I know that Luke has his history correctly written. I am perusing this for your benefit.

This is Ussher's retrieved data from [Tacitus, Annals 1.1.c.11.3:267] {Suetonius, Augustus, 1.2.c.101.s.4.1:309}. This is listed under the heading, 4000a AM,4709 JP, 5 BC, in Ussher's book, The Annuls of the World:

"6051 Augustus ordered that all the Roman world should be taxed. This taxing first happened when Cyrenius was governor of Syria. {Lu 2:1} From this, a little book was made by Augustus, containing all the public riches, as well as the number of roman citizens and armed allies. It listed the navies, kingdoms and provinces, and it recorded what tribute and customs were required to be paid."

Ken: I've already dealt with this in post 214. In fact, you quoted it in post 215 but never addressed it. I don't know how Ussher came up with a date of 5 BCE, but it's obviously incorrect. In 5 BCE Judea was not part of the Roman Empire and therefore was not subject to direct taxation. Moreover, the governorship of Syria was held by Publius Quintilius Varus in 5 BCE, not by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius. Quirinius didn't become governor of Syria until 6 CE. The Judean census that he supervised in that year was not part of an empire-wide census; it was a local census occasioned by the accession of Judea as a Roman province. Tacitus makes it clear that the "little book" was compiled shortly before Augustus' death in 14 CE. 

If Luke is correct, as you claim he is, Jesus was born no earlier than 6 CE. This means that Matthew, who says he was born before 4 BCE, is wrong. So much for Biblical inerrancy

iama: It is common knowledge that humans are fallible.  As the following article (see the end of the article) indicates, secular historians have made mistakes.  Since our Creator-God is the Author of The Bible, you can be sure that The Bible does not contain historical mistakes, or any other types of mistakes!

Both the Apostle Matthew and the physician, Luke, are correctly recording the history of Christ Jesus' birth.

Following is another who is challenging Luke 2:1's historicity.  The end of this artlcle deals with the Luke 2:1 passage re: Quirinius:

Calvin College Professor’s Claim Regarding Supposed Errors in the Bible

As stated above, I have included below a more detailed quote from the  Calvin College professor where he outlines what he claims are errors in  the Bible.  Then, I have included comments from Archbishop Ussher’s Annals of World History and Sir Isaac Newton’s Revised History of Ancient Kingdoms (both available from our online bookstore).  Keep in mind that Ussher  and Newton made these answers available around 300 years or so ago—thus,  the answers to these supposed errors have been around for a long time.

Here is what the Calvin College religion professor stated (taken from the article in the Chimes referenced above):

Here are two examples of minor factual errors in the  Bible, one taken from the Old Testament, the other from the New. One,  Daniel 5 features a king of Babylon named Belshazzar, whom it identifies  as the son of Nebuchadnezzar. According to Babylonian records, though,  Belshazzar was the son of Nabonidus, not Nebuchadnezzar, and he never  reigned as king of Babylon. Two, Luke 2 states that the emperor Augustus  ordered a worldwide census in the year of Jesus’ birth, when Quirinius  was governor of Syria. According to Jewish and Roman sources, however,  Quirinius initiated a census only in Judea, and it occurred in a.d. 6,  some ten years or more after the birth of Jesus, who according to  Matthew was born before Herod the Great died in 4 b.c. Luke may not have  hit a home run on this one, but he was certainly in the ball park.  There are several minor glitches like this in the Bible.”

Here are the answers taken directly (without comment) from Ussher and Newton respectively to these supposed errors:

Usshers’s Annals of the World

4000a AM, 4709 JP, 5 BC

6051. Augustus ordered that all the Roman world should be  taxed. This taxing first happened when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.  {#Lu 2:1} From this, a little book was made by Augustus, containing all  the public riches, as well as the number of Roman citizens and armed  allies. It listed the navies, kingdoms and provinces, and it recorded  what tribute and customs were required to be paid. {*Tacitus, Annals, l.  1. c. 11. 3:267} {*Suetonius, Augustus, l. 2. c. 101. s. 4. 1:309}

6052. Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was called Cyrenius in  the Greek, Kυτιωιου or Kυρνινιου, and had been a consul at Rome for  seven years prior to this. Strabo wrote about the Homonadensians, a  people of Cilicia: {*Strabo, l. 12. c. 6. s. 5. 5:479}

“Quirinius overcame them by famine and took four thousand men and distributed them into the neighbouring cities.”
the same as Publius Sulpicius Quirinius with the Romans

6053. Tacitus wrote: {*Tacitus, Annals, l. 3. c. 48. 3:597,599}

“He was a valiant warrior and ambitious in all his  duties. He had the consulship under Augustus. He was famous, for he won  the citadels of the Homonadensians by assault and obtained the ensigns  of triumph.”

6054. Augustus himself had decreed that the magistrates  should not be sent into the provinces as soon as they had left office.  {*Suetonius, Augustus, l. 2. c. 36. 1:207} They should wait five years  after their term of office expired. {*Dio, l. 53. (14) 6:227}

6055. After that, Quirinius obtained the proconsulate of  Cilicia. He could be sent into nearby Syria, either as censor, with an  extraordinary power, or as Caesar’s governor, with ordinary power.  [K531] He would still retain the proconsulship of Cilicia and Sextius  Saturninus, the governor of Syria. We have often read in Josephus that  Volumnius and Saturninus were both equally called governors of Syria,  whereas only Volumnius, was the governor of Syria. {*Josephus, Jewish  War, l. 1. c. 27. s. 2. (538) 2:255} [E792] A little later, Quintilius  Varus was made successor to Saturninus, with the proconsular authority.  So nothing is incorrect, in that Quirinius may be said to have succeeded  to, or rather to have been added to, the office of administrating  Caesar’s affairs, as King Herod was. Josephus noted that Herod was to be  the governor of all Syria. {*Josephus, Jewish War, l. 1. c. 20. s. 4.  (400) 2:189} This was so constituted by Augustus, in order that Herod  was added to the governors and so that all things would be done  according to his wishes. {*Josephus, Antiq., l. 15. c. 10. s. 4. (360)  8:175} Hence both would govern together. Tertullian stated:  {*Tertullian, Against Marcion, l. 4. c. 19. 3:378}

“There was a tax raised under Augustus in Judea, by Sentius Saturninus.”

6056. Luke stated, when this same taxing was made: {#Lu 2:1,2}

“when Cyrenius or Quirinius was governor of Syria.”

6057. Luke would rather mention him than the governor  Saturninus, because he would compare this taxing with another that was  made ten years later by the same Quirinius, after Archelaus was sent  into banishment. He stated that, of the two taxings, this was the first  taxing and this was the time of the birth of Christ.

6058. When this first taxing was enacted, Joseph went up  from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth into Judea, to the city of  David, called Bethlehem. He was of the house and lineage of David and  would be taxed there with his wife Mary, who was due to deliver. {#Lu  2:4,5} Bethlehem to be enrolled

For Newton's resource re: Daniel,  see the above link.

As Paul says in Romans 3:4, “let God be true but every man a liar.”

.

Jul 25, 2011 -- 11:30AM, Ken wrote:

Ken: Quirinius didn't hold any position of authority in Syria until 6 CE, when he was appointed governor. Moreover, no Roman census was held in Judea until 6 CE, when Judea became a Roman province. The census of 6 CE was held when Quirinius was governor of Syria - and that's what Luke tells us.

iama: Here is what James Ussher records:

Ussher: p 777

4000a AM, 4709 JP, 5 BC

6051. Augustus ordered that all the Roman world should be taxed. This taxing first happened when Cyrenius was governor of Syria. {Lk 2:1} From this, a little book was made by Augustus, containing all the public riches, as well as the number of Roman citizens and armed allies. It listed the naves, kingdoms and provinces, and it recorded what tribute and customs were required to be paid. {*Tacitus, Annals, 1.1.c.11.3:267} {*Suetonius, Augustus, 1.2.c.101.s.4.1:309}

Ken: The "little book" was written by Augustus shortly before his death in 14 CE, eight years after Judea became a Roman province. He (or rather his secretaries) compiled the information from various sources, one of which was no doubt the Judean census of 6 CE. This document does not record a Judean census under Herod the Great (who had died eighteen years earlier) nor does it establish that Augustus ever held a single empire-wide census. We know that he didn't. The first such census was held by Vespasian sixty years after Augustus' death.

Ussher: 6052.  Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was called Cyrenius in the Greek, Kutioion or Kurniniou, and had been a consul at Rome for seven years prior to this. Strabo wrote about the Homonadensians, a people of Cilicia: {*Strabo, 1.12.c.6.s.5.5:479}

"Quirinius overcame them by famine and took four thousand men and distributed them into the neighbouring cities."

6053.  Tacitus wrote: {*Tacitus, Annals. 1.3.c.48.3:597,599}

"He was a valiant worrior and ambitious in all his duties. He had the consulship under Augustus. He was famous, for he won the citadels of the Homonadensians by assault and obtained the ensigns of triumph."

Ken: The Homonadenses were bandits who lived in Cilicia and Galatia. Quirinius fought them between 6 and 3 BCE when he was governor of Galatia.

Ussher: 6055.  After that, Quirinius obtained the proconsulate of Cilicia. He could be sent into nearby Syria, either as censor, with an extraordinary power. [K531] He would still retain the proconsulship of Cilicia and Sextius Saturanius, the governor of Syria. We have often read in Josephus that Volumnius and Saturninus were both equally called governors of Syria, whereas only Volumnius, was the governor of Syria. {*Josephus, Jewish War. 1.1.c.27.s.2. (538) 2:255}

Ken: Ussher has made a mess of this. A proconsulate was a one-year governorship held by a former consul immediately following his term of office. As Quirinius was consul in 12 BCE, he would have held a proconsulate in 11 BCE, five years before becoming governor of Galatia and fighting the Homonadenses. Moreover, Sentius Saturninus (there was no such person as "Sextius Saturanius") was governor of Syria from 10 to 7 BCE - before Quirinius fought the Homonadenses. 

There was no such thing as a dual governorship in the Roman Empire. Josephus did not say that Volumnius and Saturninus were both called governors of Syria. He described them as being "in charge of Syria." He later tells us that Saturninus (not Volumnius) was governor of Syria, and that Volumnius was his procurator (chief financial officer). A procurator was certainly one of the people in charge of a province, but he wasn't a governor, he was a member of the governor's staff. Quirinius could never have been a procurator - he belonged to the senatorial order, and procurators always belonged to the equestrian order. Equestrians were inferior in status to senators. A governorship was the only provincial position of authority that Quirinius could have held after serving as consul in 12 BCE. Anything else would have been beneath his dignity. Quirinius would not have accepted a lesser position, and Augustus would not have insulted him by offering one.

Ussher: Tertullian stated : {Tertullian, Against Marcion, 1.4.c.19.3:378}

"There was a tax raised under Augustus in Judea, by Sentius Saturanius."

6056.  Luke stated, when this same taxing was made: {Lu 2:1 ,2}

"when Cyrenius or Quirinius was governor of Syria."

6057.  Luke would rather mention him than the governor Saturninus, because he would compare this taxing with another that was made ten years later by the same Quirinius, after Archelaus was sent into banishment. He stated that, of the two taxings, this was the first taxing and this was the time of the birth of Christ.

Ken: Ussher goes from bad to worse. Augustus never had Sentius Saturninus raise a tax in Judea. Judea was a client kingdom during the reign of Herod, and subjects of client kings weren't directly taxed by Rome. Instead, client kings paid a specified annual tribute, agreed upon though diplomatic negotiations. The client king raised this tribute in any way he chose - the Romans didn't care how as long as he paid it on schedule. Rome didn't directly tax Judea until 6 CE, when Herod's successor Archelaus was deposed and Judea became a province of the empire. Quirinius became governor of Syria that same year and administered the tax census.

Ussher: 6058.  When this first taxing was enacted, Joseph went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth into Judea, to the city of David, called Bethlehem. He was of the house and lineage of David and would be taxed there with his wife Mary, who was due to deliver. {Lu 2:4, 5}

Ken: In 6 CE Joseph would have been a subject of Herod Antipas, who ruled Galilee. Galilee was not part of the province of Judea; it was an independent client state. The Judean census would not have affected Joseph.

Luke firmly places Jesus' birth during the Roman census of Judea in 6 CE, about ten years after the death of Herod the Great, and nothing connected with this census could have happened earlier than 6 CE. If Luke is right, Matthew is wrong about Jesus having been born under Herod the Great. If Matthew is right, Luke is wrong. Matthew and Luke can't both be right. Each contradicts the other. I've explained this a dozen times. When does it finally sink in?

iama: No! Luke places this census during the first of Quirinius' governorships! As is given by Ussher, above.  Both Matthew and Luke are correct!

Ken: Quirinius was governor of Syria once and only once. He began his term of office in 6 CE, the same year in which the very first Judean census was held. By then, Herod the Great had been dead for ten years.

iama:  You didn't give any supporting documentation for your replies.

.

Aug 17, 2011 -- 9:25AM, Ken wrote:

iama: You didn't give any supporting documentation for your replies.

Ken: Neither did you. This is an internet forum, not a scholarly publication with footnotes. It should be obvious, however, that I took the trouble to research your (or rather Ussher's) assertions - looking up Tacitus, for example, or checking to see what Josephus really said - and that everything I've written is deeply informed by a knowledge of Roman history. Unlike you, I don't just paste up any old tosh that I find on the web; I actually put some effort into my replies. Admit it - you have nothing with which to counter them, and now you're trying to dodge them. You're treating me precisely as you treat Abner in the Origins of Life forum.

iama: Where was Quirinius in 4 B.C.?

.