Mar 28, 2010 -- 2:04PM, Stephen wrote:

But, SDP, there are the two aspects of self, (I wholeheartedly agree) who we were originally created to be, and what we have become through the defiling work of the evil one. Granted, that defiling is so extreme that the only cure is death and resurrection, which we enter into through baptism. But, having that covenant made and affirmed, we can come boldly into the presence of God Himself, seek His face, and fully experience the needed death to self. For no one can see the Lord and live.

And yet we live! Wonder of wonders, it's a form of a Near Death Experience. There we are, a thoroughly messed up example of humanity, lying there dead on the table, but there's a new self living on, looking on. The sin, still uglifying us, is no longer "us." ""Because I agree with the law, that it is good, it is no longer I who sin, but sin in me!" But, "It's not I who live, it's Yeshua who is living in me." For all practical purposes, as far as I personally am concerned, it's the second coming of Christ!

And the defilement of the "old" me? ("My Blue Heaven" with Steve Martin!), Oh, well. Of cursory interest.

Stephen, the "old" me is either dead or it isn't (concerning what you have described here). How can you possibly say that the defilement of (by) the "old" me is of cursory interest? Are you saying that you are no longer responsible for sinning? ("It is no longer I who sin, but sin in me!")

 Of course, I hate it when I'm like that. But particulars fade away pretty rapidly, revealing new ones that I hadn't been aware of, really awful, costly stuff. But, as each one is washed away, the new ones I see, that in times past I could not have borne to face, are easily redeemed as well. Faith increases.

Fun? Never. Joyful? Always. Love and Laughter? Plenty. Good grief? Sure. What makes it good is the ever increasing hope and faith that I will see the hand of the Lord fixing the messes I've made, that I am becoming more and more aware of. 

The scriptures are indeed able to make us wise, to clean up every mess, fix everything. So, here is a useful preparation for making decisions. Go through the scriptures, looking for recommended choices. I have found seven. Hold every other decision to those standards, and, well, life is indeed good.

S.

I have to disagree with you. I think Jesus was all about transformation, here, now. The church is afraid of what Jesus taught, you virtually never hear it taught, you hear Paul. My advise to you, read the red and compare that to your version of Christianity.

Jesus doesn't want you to adhere to your seven principles. He wants you to change so that you make the right decisions naturally. This, you won't find taught in church (unless you happen to be Eastern Orthodox). IOW, the "old" me isn't really dead.......

Salvation is a process.

sdp

Mar 28, 2010 -- 1:11PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

I think you can always go more deeply into the question. For example, Why do you need a chain saw? ...........and then the why behind the why..............

sdp 

Okay ... digging deeper ...

To remove invasive exotic species to make way for less-invasive exotic species (fruit trees) and for native trees, shrubs, herbaceous plants, and the birds and insects that depend on them. Let's look at the list again ...

physically, pleasure, pain:

A diverse environment around my home is good for my health and aesthetically pleasing. So I suppose part of the issue is maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain.

mentally, reason:

Exotic species are pushing local species and entire ecosystems to extinction. While life changes and evolves, and species move from one region to another, human beings have accelerated the rate of extinction and brought different species together at an unprecedented rate. As the one species that can intervene to preserve the world we emerged from and are adapted to, I think it is reasonable to do something to mitigate and reverse the harm we've inflicted. Nature might still have something else in mind, but self-preservation seems more natural than exhausting our resource base and letting our species go extinct, especially if it includes taking a bunch of other species with us.

spiritually, a bigger picture, compassion, selflessness:

At times, ecological restoration seems like a losing battle. Chances are that someone will come along and build a shopping mall on the site where I'm investing years — probably eventually decades of labor — trying to protect native plants. However, knowing (1) the sort of harm our species has inflicted upon the planet, (2) that even a tiny bit of effort can help tip the balance toward protecting some species, (3) someone else might be inspired to do the same, (4) if nothing else, I might make life more pleasant for a few birds, and (5) biological diversity is essential for long-term stability, I don't mind spending the time and money to do what seems right for the bigger picture.

emotionally, desires, like, dislike:

Well ... I suppose you could say I dislike pain, like diverse native ecosystems, like natural plant and animal communities, like the idea of picking an apple from my own tree, like repairing a small amount of the damage done by my species, dislike the idea of entire ecosystem collapsing, value self-preservation, value protecting other species, find pleasure in working outside, find pleasure in feeling I'm doing the "right" thing, and so on ... AND ... have tried to justify ALL of it by convincing myself that the rational decision — given the opportunity — is devote some time to protecting the environment, which happens to require a chainsaw ... tried using hand tools, but made very little progress.

I wonder whether it is a web of cause and effect, intersecting circles of ... physically, pleasure, pain ... mentally, reason ... spiritually, a bigger picture, compassion, selflessness ... emotionally, desires, like, dislike ... all feeding back on one another, negatively and positively. I don't think you can point to ONE THING and say the decision process starts HERE, emotions.