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Switch to Forum Live View Owning Your Own Shadow
7 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 11:32AM #81
F1fan
Posts: 13,500

Mar 16, 2010 -- 8:58PM, Wendyness wrote:


It had everything to do with "removing" the "shadow" of "inferiority".  Women have been the hooks for men's "inferiority" for a long time.  It's only in recent history that SOME women have been able to shed this projection.  We still have a global problem with this attitude towards women, and it is evident when the New York Times Sunday Magazine edition August 29, 2009, wrote that 100 million women and girls are missing globally due to gender discrimination.  



Inferiority and superiority go hand in hand.  When it deals with two groups one can look at data and determine if one is superior.  It is obvious that some men do want to perpetuate old, unjustified ideas about the capabilities of women.  I'd say this is due in part to the fear, but not so much that women may equal, or even superior at some tasks, but that a man might be flawed in his judgments.  Prejudice always has to protect itself from facts and data.  


The Nazis felt inferior after they had been defeated in World War I, they were in economic ruin, they projected their own "inferiority" and made the Jews "inferior" so they could feel "superior". Same method.  Same shadow. If I can see someone as inferior, then I see myself as "superior".



The National Socialist party didn't exist during WW1, it came about in the mid 20's.  The Germans had long been a nationalistic people who felt their leadership failed them.  Germany suffered a depression along with many other parts of the world in the 20's.  And MOST of Europe was anti Semitic.  The Germans just did something about it as part of their new social policy.  The Nazis didn't feel national pride due to anti Semitism, it was propaganda about the German "race" as superior.  It was misplaced superiority that led to justifications of discrimination of the Jews.  Perhaps they had inferior reason and morality (and I'd say that the Bush admin and neo conservatives is in a similar category) that led to major social and military mistakes.


It takes a inferior man to project his own shadow onto a woman, a nation, or a race.



This might be true is some examples.  But I'd argue that a false sense of superiority can have similar effects.  Inferiority might have a shadow effect IF one's own expectations are not met.  For example, if a bike racer thinks himself superior, but fails to win the races he expects to win, he might begin shifting his focus on others as inferior in some way or another, like assuming they cheated.  This surely aims to offset the facts of one's own inferiority in reference to inflated expectations.  It is generally a mixture of mental images that do not reflect reality.


Need I say that if we continue as humans to think that we are "superior" to nature and we can control it with our "science", we and our beautiful planet are doomed.  



I don't see humans using science to control nature, rather to use raw materials to make our lives better.  That does not mean that these efforts do not lead to problems, such as global warming.  Now science is trying to fix the worse polluters to help SAVE the planet.  In reality the planet won't be killed if we do nothing, humans will suffer.  The truer statement is that we need to act to save the climate so it remains suitable for human life.

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 12:03PM #82
Wendyness
Posts: 3,012

Mar 17, 2010 -- 11:32AM, F1fan wrote:


Mar 16, 2010 -- 8:58PM, Wendyness wrote:


It had everything to do with "removing" the "shadow" of "inferiority".  Women have been the hooks for men's "inferiority" for a long time.  It's only in recent history that SOME women have been able to shed this projection.  We still have a global problem with this attitude towards women, and it is evident when the New York Times Sunday Magazine edition August 29, 2009, wrote that 100 million women and girls are missing globally due to gender discrimination.  



Inferiority and superiority go hand in hand.  When it deals with two groups one can look at data and determine if one is superior.  It is obvious that some men do want to perpetuate old, unjustified ideas about the capabilities of women.  I'd say this is due in part to the fear, but not so much that women may equal, or even superior at some tasks, but that a man might be flawed in his judgments.  Prejudice always has to protect itself from facts and data.  


The Nazis felt inferior after they had been defeated in World War I, they were in economic ruin, they projected their own "inferiority" and made the Jews "inferior" so they could feel "superior". Same method.  Same shadow. If I can see someone as inferior, then I see myself as "superior".



The National Socialist party didn't exist during WW1, it came about in the mid 20's.  The Germans had long been a nationalistic people who felt their leadership failed them.  Germany suffered a depression along with many other parts of the world in the 20's.  And MOST of Europe was anti Semitic.  The Germans just did something about it as part of their new social policy.  The Nazis didn't feel national pride due to anti Semitism, it was propaganda about the German "race" as superior.  It was misplaced superiority that led to justifications of discrimination of the Jews.  Perhaps they had inferior reason and morality (and I'd say that the Bush admin and neo conservatives is in a similar category) that led to major social and military mistakes.


It takes a inferior man to project his own shadow onto a woman, a nation, or a race.



This might be true is some examples.  But I'd argue that a false sense of superiority can have similar effects.  Inferiority might have a shadow effect IF one's own expectations are not met.  For example, if a bike racer thinks himself superior, but fails to win the races he expects to win, he might begin shifting his focus on others as inferior in some way or another, like assuming they cheated.  This surely aims to offset the facts of one's own inferiority in reference to inflated expectations.  It is generally a mixture of mental images that do not reflect reality.


Need I say that if we continue as humans to think that we are "superior" to nature and we can control it with our "science", we and our beautiful planet are doomed.  



I don't see humans using science to control nature, rather to use raw materials to make our lives better.  That does not mean that these efforts do not lead to problems, such as global warming.  Now science is trying to fix the worse polluters to help SAVE the planet.  In reality the planet won't be killed if we do nothing, humans will suffer.  The truer statement is that we need to act to save the climate so it remains suitable for human life.




The nuclear weapons are "science" being used to control HUMAN behavior or as some would call it "human nature".  

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 8:54PM #83
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

Quote from Man is the Measure


Mar 16, 2010 -- 1:24AM, Wendyness wrote:

LOL!  No one is capable of 100% consciousness. 


 LOL! or even LOL!!!!!! is not an argument.  An assertion without support can be dismissed without comment.  


However, one of my weaknesses is to comment anyway.  


While many autonomous processes don't need to rise to the level of consciousness to function, they are not immune to conscious manipulation.  Placebos as an example.  


One would not generally aspire to 100% consciousness.


A centipede was happy quite,


Until a frog in fun


Said, "Pray, which leg comes after which?


"This raised her mind to such a pitch,


She lay distracted in the ditch


Considering how to run.


-- Anonymous



However, one can be 100% conscious of behavior influencing activities of the mind/brain. The fact that you believe Jungian therapy can give you some control over the shadow is evidence that such control is possible.  The real question is what belief system, and it takes a belief system to mask behavior influencing activities from the consciousness, causes the shadow?  In a different post you noted that touching yourself "there" is bad or something like that.  Why? Touching yourself "there" is natural.  See any dog.  What belief system other one that is trying to control your sexuality would suggest such an unnatural attitude?  


More on Blue Roads 

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 8:59PM #84
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

Interestingly, though, Meaning-full ( Human ) "Consciousness" is highly SELECTIVE -- screening-filtering-out incoming Information and Stimuli that can be or ought to be ignored, which VERY active Process is already an Assignment of Meanings and Interpretations of "Reality" ...

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 9:00PM #85
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

Moved from man is measure


Mar 16, 2010 -- 8:24PM, Wendyness wrote:


Mar 16, 2010 -- 2:02PM, Jcarlinbn wrote:


However, one can be 100% conscious of behavior influencing activities of the mind/brain. The fact that you believe Jungian therapy can give you some control over the shadow is evidence that such control is possible.  The real question is what belief system, and it takes a belief system to mask behavior influencing activities from the consciousness, causes the shadow?  In a different post you noted that touching yourself "there" is bad or something like that.  Why? Touching yourself "there" is natural.  See any dog.  What belief system other one that is trying to control your sexuality would suggest such an unnatural attitude?  


 




Read my post again, I never said that "I" think that way, I made up a scenario using an example how parents can project their "shadow" onto a child.   Of course it's natural.  Furthermore, it was a thread on  "Owning your Shadow".


Your interpretation of what I wrote is a projection.  Your shadow is righteous. 


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7 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 9:04PM #86
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

Moved post


Mar 16, 2010 -- 10:55PM, Wendyness wrote:


Jcarlinbn,


You ask what causes the shadow? As Robert Bly puts it in, "The Long Bag we Drag Behind Us" in MEETING THE SHADOW:


"When we were one or two years old we had what we might visualize as a 360-degree personality. Energy radiated out from all parts of our body and all parts of our psyche.  A child running is a living globe of energy.  We had a ball of energy, all right; but one day we noticed that our parents didn't like certain parts of the ball.  They said things like: "Can't you be still?" Or "it isn't nice to try and kill your brother." Behind us we have an invisible bag, and the part of us our parents don't like, we, to keep our parents love, put in the bag.  By the time we go to school our bag is quite large. Then our teachers have their say:  "Good children don't get angry over such little things." So we take our anger and put it in the bag.  


Then we do a lot of bag-stuffing in high school.  This time it's no longer the evil grownups that pressure us but people our own age.  So the student's paranoia about grownups can be misplaced. 


So I maintain that out of a round globe of energy the twenty-year-old ends up with a slice.  We'll imagine a man who has a thin slice left--the rest is in the bag.


Different cultures fill the bag with different contents.


We spend our life until we're twenty deciding what parts of ourself to put into the bag, and we spend the rest of our lives trying to get them out again.


 


........we can only see the contents of our own bag by throwing them innocently, as we say, out into the word.  Spiders then become evil, snakes cunning, goats oversexed; men become linear, women become weak, the Russians become unprincipled, and the Chinese all look alike.  Yet it is precisely through this expensive, damaging, wasteful, inaccurate form of mud-slinging that we eventually come in touch with the mud that the crow found on the bottom of its feet. 



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7 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 9:32PM #87
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

Mar 16, 2010 -- 10:55PM, Wendyness wrote:


Jcarlinbn,


You ask what causes the shadow? As Robert Bly puts it in, "The Long Bag we Drag Behind Us" in MEETING THE SHADOW:


"When we were one or two years old we had what we might visualize as a 360-degree personality. Energy radiated out from all parts of our body and all parts of our psyche.  A child running is a living globe of energy.  We had a ball of energy, all right; but one day we noticed that our parents didn't like certain parts of the ball.  They said things like: "Can't you be still?" Or "it isn't nice to try and kill your brother." 


But if our parents weren't obsessed with sin and badness and had said "Your activity is annoying me, would you take it elsewhere, or control it to please me?" instead of "ADD is sick, oops "Can't you be still?" If they said "Your brother will hurt just like you do when hit, can you consider his feelings, that is use your natural empathy to identify with your potentially hurt brother?"  Instead of "It is sin to try to kill your brother."  Intervention may be necessary, but it is not necessary to dump a bunch of BS into the kid's bag during the intervention.  


Wouldn't it be nice to be 25 with an empty bag? It can be done. When people try to dump BS into your bag simply say "I don't need that. I can control that behavior, or do it where it won't annoy other people." This is known as being socially responsible.  Kids learn it naturally unless people dump BS into their bag.  


When that little tinhorn in the fancy dress in the overdecorated balcony tries to dump his BS into my bag, I simply tell him that my BS bag has no bottom, and herm BS means nothing to me.  Hesh will usually then scream "God will send you to Hell sinner!"and I will smile nicely and say "Hesh may try if Hesh wishes, but I doubt Hesh would as I am not a sinner.  My BS bag is empty."   


 

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 10:06PM #88
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,664

The language one repeatedly uses in posts......and the emotional tone of posts (which can be oh..so obvious) could be a clue to one's..........shadow..........


sdp 

Roses always come with thorns. Sometimes, thorns first, sometimes roses first, and, sometimes, thorns outside, roses inside, sometimes roses outside, thorns inside.

Someone who dreams of drinking wine at a cheerful banquet may wake up crying the next morning. Someone who dreams of crying may go off the next morning to enjoy the sport of the hunt. When we are in the midst of a dream, we do not know it's a dream. Sometimes we may even try to interpret our dreams while we are dreaming, but then we awake and realize it was a dream. Only after one is greatly awakened does one realize that it was all a great dream, while the fool thinks that he is awake and presumptuously aware. Chuang Tzu
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 10:53PM #89
Wendyness
Posts: 3,012

Mar 17, 2010 -- 10:06PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


The language one repeatedly uses in posts......and the emotional tone of posts (which can be oh..so obvious) could be a clue to one's..........shadow..........


sdp 




Are you having a good chuckle? Cool

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2010 - 11:01PM #90
Wendyness
Posts: 3,012

Mar 17, 2010 -- 9:32PM, Jcarlinbn wrote:


Mar 16, 2010 -- 10:55PM, Wendyness wrote:


Jcarlinbn,


You ask what causes the shadow? As Robert Bly puts it in, "The Long Bag we Drag Behind Us" in MEETING THE SHADOW:


"When we were one or two years old we had what we might visualize as a 360-degree personality. Energy radiated out from all parts of our body and all parts of our psyche.  A child running is a living globe of energy.  We had a ball of energy, all right; but one day we noticed that our parents didn't like certain parts of the ball.  They said things like: "Can't you be still?" Or "it isn't nice to try and kill your brother." 


But if our parents weren't obsessed with sin and badness and had said "Your activity is annoying me, would you take it elsewhere, or control it to please me?" instead of "ADD is sick, oops "Can't you be still?" If they said "Your brother will hurt just like you do when hit, can you consider his feelings, that is use your natural empathy to identify with your potentially hurt brother?"  Instead of "It is sin to try to kill your brother."  Intervention may be necessary, but it is not necessary to dump a bunch of BS into the kid's bag during the intervention.  


Wouldn't it be nice to be 25 with an empty bag? It can be done. When people try to dump BS into your bag simply say "I don't need that. I can control that behavior, or do it where it won't annoy other people." This is known as being socially responsible.  Kids learn it naturally unless people dump BS into their bag.  


When that little tinhorn in the fancy dress in the overdecorated balcony tries to dump his BS into my bag, I simply tell him that my BS bag has no bottom, and herm BS means nothing to me.  Hesh will usually then scream "God will send you to Hell sinner!"and I will smile nicely and say "Hesh may try if Hesh wishes, but I doubt Hesh would as I am not a sinner.  My BS bag is empty."   


 




Right.  You have said repeatedly you have no "sin" or shadow.  

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