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7 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2010 - 2:36PM #181
Christianlib
Posts: 21,847

In the 60s it was often said, "Drugs will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no drugs."


 


And no, I don't snort, toke, or inject anything.  I WILL swallow wine and Guiness.  I'm just posting a past chuckle.

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2010 - 3:29PM #182
Wendyness
Posts: 3,012

Mar 26, 2010 -- 2:36PM, Christianlib wrote:


In the 60s it was often said, "Drugs will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no drugs."


 


And no, I don't snort, toke, or inject anything.  I WILL swallow wine and Guiness.  I'm just posting a past chuckle.




I love Belgium beer, especially Chimay, blue.  

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2010 - 3:59PM #183
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

Mar 26, 2010 -- 1:04PM, Wendyness wrote:

Mar 26, 2010 -- 12:23PM, Jcarlinbn wrote:

Mar 26, 2010 -- 11:55AM, Wendyness wrote:

Jealousy is is not a learned behavior, it comes with the package of being human. 


I disagree, but do not argue with beliefs.  


See below link.


internationalreporter.com/News-4211/babi...



From the link


Lead author of the study, Prof. Maria Legerstee, professor of psychology at York University in Toronto, Canada, says even three months old baby may have ways of letting mom know by crying, kicking and turning in their seats when mom's attention turns to someone else. She says the behavior is quite normal and parents need not worry about it.  It's a normal and appropriate reaction," Legerstee said...The findings of the study will be included in next year's Handbook of Jealousy: Theories, Principles and Multidisciplinary Approaches.


Before I bow down before any belief system, I look to see what axes the believer may have to grind.  Prof. Legerstee has made a career in psychology studying jealousy.  As you may note the referenced research will be published in a Handbook companion to another book on jealousy.


It seems that she has rather well developed jealousy in her shadow.  It is little wonder that she finds it in babies and believes


The development of "non-basic" emotions such as jealousy, pride, embarrassment and guilt are thought to develop during the second year of life, generally known as terrible two's, Prof. Legerstee said.


Please note "non-basic emotions" that is the shadow "develop" during the terrible twos, by parents trying to control the child's behavior by loading up the "terrible bag" with dysfunctional self images of jealousy, pride, embarrassment and guilt.  Note the relationship to the Seven Deadly Sins of Catholicism.  None of which are worth much to the believer, but which are gold for the preacher or therapist.  


The terrible two's are terrible because the child is learning to relate to others in herm society.  This is a difficult process both for the child and the caregiver.  The child will test behaviors and act out emotional reactions to peers and adults.  It is all to easy for the caregiver to label the behavior as bad, even giving it a name, "Don't be jealous of Billy you can play with Jane later." Or worse "Don't be jealous of Billy, there are others you can play with."  By the way while you are at it you can stuff that jealous self image in your shadow bag, it will be real useful when you are a teen.  


It is harder but better for the care giver to find a socially acceptable way to help the child find a way into the Billy/Jane group. The jealousy is initially rejection by the group, which needs to be dealt with by finding ways to overcome the rejection. Rejection by the social group is an evolutionary fatal result.  The two year old must learn to overcome the rejection.  


The baby reacts to the rejection by herm most important social connection, herm mother, by crying, kicking and turning in their seats when mom's attention turns to someone else.  One may impute jealousy, but abandonment by mom at 3 months is fatal.


If I may be so bold as to criticize the experimental protocol, I would ask if a normal mother would abandon attention to a 3 month old, for an animated emotional discussion with a stranger to the baby.  Would not a normal mother have her hand on the stroller rocking it or otherwise showing the infant that hesh was in the social group?  


(Don't get me started on abusive psychology experiments even at the University level)  


 


 


 


 


 

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2010 - 4:03PM #184
Wendyness
Posts: 3,012

Mar 26, 2010 -- 3:59PM, Jcarlinbn wrote:


Mar 26, 2010 -- 1:04PM, Wendyness wrote:

Mar 26, 2010 -- 12:23PM, Jcarlinbn wrote:

Mar 26, 2010 -- 11:55AM, Wendyness wrote:

Jealousy is is not a learned behavior, it comes with the package of being human. 


I disagree, but do not argue with beliefs.  


See below link.


internationalreporter.com/News-4211/babi...



From the link


Lead author of the study, Prof. Maria Legerstee, professor of psychology at York University in Toronto, Canada, says even three months old baby may have ways of letting mom know by crying, kicking and turning in their seats when mom's attention turns to someone else. She says the behavior is quite normal and parents need not worry about it.  It's a normal and appropriate reaction," Legerstee said...The findings of the study will be included in next year's Handbook of Jealousy: Theories, Principles and Multidisciplinary Approaches.



Before I bow down before any belief system, I look to see what axes the believer may have to grind.  Prof. Legerstee has made a career in psychology studying jealousy.  As you may note the referenced research will be published in a Handbook companion to another book on jealousy.


It seems that she has rather well developed jealousy in her shadow.  It is little wonder that she finds it in babies and believes

The development of "non-basic" emotions such as jealousy, pride, embarrassment and guilt are thought to develop during the second year of life, generally known as terrible two's, Prof. Legerstee said.


Please note "non-basic emotions" that is the shadow "develop" during the terrible twos, by parents trying to control the child's behavior by loading up the "terrible bag' with dysfunctional self images of jealousy, pride, embarrassment and guilt.  Note the relationship to the Seven Deadly Sins of Catholicism.  None of which are worth much to the believer, but which are gold for the preacher or therapist.  


There are other ways of dealing with the terrible two's which are terrible because the child is learning to relate to others in herm society.  This is a difficult process both for the child and the caregiver.  The child will test behaviors and act out emotional reactions to peers and adults.  It is all to easy for the caregiver to label the behavior as bad, even giving it a name, "Don't be jealous of Billy you can play with Jane later." Or worse "Don't be jealous of Billy, there are others you can play with."  By the way while you are at it you can stuff that jealous self image in your shadow bag, it will be real useful when you are a teen.  


It is harder but better for the care giver to find a socially acceptable way to help the child find a way into the Billy/Jane group. The jealousy is initially rejection by the group, which needs to be dealt with by finding ways to overcome the rejection.  The baby reacts to the rejection by herm most important social connection, herm mother, by crying, kicking and turning in their seats when mom's attention turns to someone else.  One may impute jealousy, but abandonment by mom at 3 months is fatal.


If I may be so bold as to criticize the experimental protocol, I would ask if a normal mother would abandon attention to a 3 month old, for an animated emotional discussion with a stranger to the baby.  Would not a normal mother have her hand on the stroller rocking it or otherwise showing the infant that hesh was in the social group?   


 


 


 


 


 




 


My, with all your knowledge and wisdom you must have been the "perfect" father.

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2010 - 4:56PM #185
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

Mar 26, 2010 -- 4:03PM, Wendyness wrote:

My, with all your knowledge and wisdom you must have been the "perfect" father.  


I don't know about perfect, I blew my share of big decisions.  However, the kids seem to have turned out OK despite the handicap of brilliance for one of them.  Both their mother and I were well aware of the dangers of labeling behavior negatively.  Neither of us were taught sin, and therefore any thought of teaching sin to our children was actively avoided.  We could see the dangers of sin all around us.  We were proactive in helping them solve social problems, consciously trying to avoid blame.  Some of their socialization was in a UU RE program, which is worth the pledge all by itself.  But basic to the UU curriculum is non-judgementalism.  There is no such thing as bad behavior in a UU RE program, therefore no labels for such behavior.  The hitting example I used earlier was lifted directly from a UU preschool curriculum.  


It might be noted, as it is significant, that both of us were actively involved in child socialization, as both of us had high level jobs, hers more demanding than mine due to blatant sexism.  

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2010 - 9:10PM #186
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,664

Mar 25, 2010 -- 6:50PM, Myownpath wrote:


But isn't it better not to have to shovel out all of the muck placed there by (usually religious) parents and mentors? If those parents and mentors worked as hard to show you the gold as they did to bury it in muck wouldn't life be a lot easier.


Yes, but that would require everyone to use highly skilled behavior and most people fall short. So what options do you have left? Maybe "go on a journey" of your own to see what makes your tick and what brings you joy. At some point in time, someone threw muck at us but we needed to agree and accept the muck that was being thrown at us. So now it is our responsibility to be proactive in finding what is good within us because no one usually shows it to us.




Bingo.......


sdp

Roses always come with thorns. Sometimes, thorns first, sometimes roses first, and, sometimes, thorns outside, roses inside, sometimes roses outside, thorns inside.

Someone who dreams of drinking wine at a cheerful banquet may wake up crying the next morning. Someone who dreams of crying may go off the next morning to enjoy the sport of the hunt. When we are in the midst of a dream, we do not know it's a dream. Sometimes we may even try to interpret our dreams while we are dreaming, but then we awake and realize it was a dream. Only after one is greatly awakened does one realize that it was all a great dream, while the fool thinks that he is awake and presumptuously aware. Chuang Tzu
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2010 - 11:24PM #187
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

Mar 26, 2010 -- 9:10PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Mar 25, 2010 -- 6:50PM, Myownpath wrote:


But isn't it better not to have to shovel out all of the muck placed there by (usually religious) parents and mentors? If those parents and mentors worked as hard to show you the gold as they did to bury it in muck wouldn't life be a lot easier.


Yes, but that would require everyone to use highly skilled behavior and most people fall short. So what options do you have left? Maybe "go on a journey" of your own to see what makes your tick and what brings you joy. At some point in time, someone threw muck at us but we needed to agree and accept the muck that was being thrown at us. So now it is our responsibility to be proactive in finding what is good within us because no one usually shows it to us.



Bingo.......


sdp 



The only bingo I see there is

Mar 25, 2010 -- 6:50PM, Myownpath wrote:

 At some point in time, someone threw muck at us but we needed to agree and accept the muck that was being thrown at us.



If the muck is thrown early enough and by authority figures like parents and preachers, we don't have much choice.  But if at some point one of those authority figures usually an intelligent parent tells us to "consider the source" it becomes easier to shuck the muck.  If a preacher tells me I am a sinner, and need a savior, I can smile and say no.  I am not a sinner.  If a shrink tells me I need to deal with repressed evils, I can say I have none.  Either the preacher or the shrink may try to throw some muck and say "See" I can refuse to accept it and say "I know how to manage that."  


Admittedly I was fortunate to be brought up by intelligent and non-judgmental parents, with no religion of significance until I was 9.  At that point I was introduced to the UU RE just in time for studying other religious traditions, and discussing what we found when we returned the next week.  I discovered sin from the outside and just shook my head.  For the first of many times I asked how can people believe that BS?   


 

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2010 - 12:11AM #188
Wendyness
Posts: 3,012

Mar 26, 2010 -- 11:24PM, Jcarlinbn wrote:


Mar 26, 2010 -- 9:10PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Mar 25, 2010 -- 6:50PM, Myownpath wrote:


But isn't it better not to have to shovel out all of the muck placed there by (usually religious) parents and mentors? If those parents and mentors worked as hard to show you the gold as they did to bury it in muck wouldn't life be a lot easier.


Yes, but that would require everyone to use highly skilled behavior and most people fall short. So what options do you have left? Maybe "go on a journey" of your own to see what makes your tick and what brings you joy. At some point in time, someone threw muck at us but we needed to agree and accept the muck that was being thrown at us. So now it is our responsibility to be proactive in finding what is good within us because no one usually shows it to us.



Bingo.......


sdp 



The only bingo I see there is

Mar 25, 2010 -- 6:50PM, Myownpath wrote:

 At some point in time, someone threw muck at us but we needed to agree and accept the muck that was being thrown at us.



If the muck is thrown early enough and by authority figures like parents and preachers, we don't have much choice.  But if at some point one of those authority figures usually an intelligent parent tells us to "consider the source" it becomes easier to shuck the muck.  If a preacher tells me I am a sinner, and need a savior, I can smile and say no.  I am not a sinner.  If a shrink tells me I need to deal with repressed evils, I can say I have none.  Either the preacher or the shrink may try to throw some muck and say "See" I can refuse to accept it and say "I know how to manage that."  


Admittedly I was fortunate to be brought up by intelligent and non-judgmental parents, with no religion of significance until I was 9.  At that point I was introduced to the UU RE just in time for studying other religious traditions, and discussing what we found when we returned the next week.  I discovered sin from the outside and just shook my head.  For the first of many times I asked how can people believe that BS?   


 





For someone that was raised so non-judgemental you sure do a lot of judging for those who have a religious belief.  

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2010 - 12:32AM #189
Namchuck
Posts: 12,199

The war of the shadows...Wink


 

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2010 - 1:15AM #190
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

Mar 27, 2010 -- 12:11AM, Wendyness wrote:

For someone that was raised so non-judgemental you sure do a lot of judging for those who have a religious belief.  


You must be confusing me with other atheists around here.  The only judgments I make on belief systems religious or otherwise is whether or not they work for me.  That is a basic human right that i refuse to give up.  And I do not judge people even if I may disagree with their belief system.  


What other people do with their belief systems is of some interest, but unless they try to impose it on me, or on all people, as in all people are sinners I will generally ignore it.  Even then I normally will at worst ridicule it.  Not judge it as worthless.  If it is dangerous as some hate sects are I may take a more active opposition to it, but again ridicule is normally the most effective tactical strategy.  





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