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Switch to Forum Live View The error of mind-body dualism
4 years ago  ::  May 10, 2010 - 11:09PM #331
Blü
Posts: 24,670

willie


You said, "our brain"


No, she said our brain function, meaning human brain function, not at all implying the possessory relationship you assert.


 


the brain is the possession of an entity


No, the brain generates the sense of being an entity.


 


Does the disbelief that  someone is just a brain related to brains also?


If you mean, Does the brain do the disbelieving when you disbelieve something?, then the answer is, yes.  That includes disbelieving that the brain does the disbelieving when you disbelieve something.


 

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4 years ago  ::  May 11, 2010 - 11:47AM #332
teilhard
Posts: 50,086

May 8, 2010 -- 6:49PM, Ephemerae_inc. wrote:


May 4, 2010 -- 4:01PM, teilhard wrote:

Does "Pond Slime" Live an Ethical Life ... ???


What does pond slime have to do with this discussion?




Some "Pond Slime" Creatures are very similar to our Universal Putative Ancestors ...

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4 years ago  ::  May 11, 2010 - 4:26PM #333
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,444

May 10, 2010 -- 11:09PM, Blü wrote:


willie


You said, "our brain"


No, she said our brain function, meaning human brain function, not at all implying the possessory relationship you assert. Our brain function, still implies that we speak of it as a possession.


 


the brain is the possession of an entity


No, the brain generates the sense of being an entity. Me being an entity is based on me consciously knowing my individuality " I AM " if this comes from a brain is still being debated.


 


Does the disbelief that someone is just a brain related to brains also?


If you mean, Does the brain do the disbelieving when you disbelieve something?, then the answer is, yes.  That includes disbelieving that the brain does the disbelieving when you disbelieve something. So if i don't believe that my brain is the seat of consciousness even though it knows that it is, this disbelief is coming from my brain. Or does my brain know anything? is it even conscious that it functions?


 



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4 years ago  ::  May 11, 2010 - 8:48PM #334
Blü
Posts: 24,670

Willie


Our brain function, still implies that we speak of it as a possession.


It simply means that humans possess brain function.  Is that in dispute?



Me being an entity is based on me consciously knowing my individuality " I AM " if this comes from a brain is still being debated.


No, it's not still being debated in any relevant sense.  You'll find not a single article in any respected journal of science that suggests your identity is generated anywhere but in your brain.  If you disagree, refer us to the article.



So if i don't believe that my brain is the seat of consciousness even though it knows that it is, this disbelief is coming from my brain. Or does my brain know anything? is it even conscious that it functions?


Your conscious brain has extremely little insight into what your non-conscious brain is doing.


For example, you have no idea where the words you type on the screen were in your brain before you typed them, yet they have to be chosen, assembled and turned into instructions to your muscles before you can type them. 


You have no idea how your brain tells your left hand to scratch your left hip. 


You have no idea why you suddenly remember that you're due at the florist's at 3 pm. 


You have no inkling that the flush of adrenaline that has you fully alert when you think you hear a burglar is generated by your brain in response to the sound - nor how. 


And so on.

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4 years ago  ::  May 13, 2010 - 2:34PM #335
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,444

May 11, 2010 -- 8:48PM, Blü wrote:


Willie


Our brain function, still implies that we speak of it as a possession.


It simply means that humans possess brain function.  Is that in dispute? To me it means that humans possess a brain that performs functions. It is a organ within a body, an important organ, but it doesn't define me.



Me being an entity is based on me consciously knowing my individuality " I AM " if this comes from a brain is still being debated.


No, it's not still being debated in any relevant sense.  You'll find not a single article in any respected journal of science that suggests your identity is generated anywhere but in your brain.  If you disagree, refer us to the article. Check out a book titled, the after death experments by Gary Schwartz.



So if i don't believe that my brain is the seat of consciousness even though it knows that it is, this disbelief is coming from my brain. Or does my brain know anything? is it even conscious that it functions?


Your conscious brain has extremely little insight into what your non-conscious brain is doing.


For example, you have no idea where the words you type on the screen were in your brain before you typed them, yet they have to be chosen, assembled and turned into instructions to your muscles before you can type them. 


You have no idea how your brain tells your left hand to scratch your left hip. It scratches it because i feel a itch, and when i want the itching feeling to stop it arranges for me to move my arm and fingers. I feel itch, desire to stop itch, it responds. Does my brain experience the sensation of the itch?


You have no idea why you suddenly remember that you're due at the florist's at 3 pm. 


You have no inkling that the flush of adrenaline that has you fully alert when you think you hear a burglar is generated by your brain in response to the sound - nor how. Since it's inconceivable that to me opens up other possibilities. Is it my brain though that has disbelief that it is the seat of consciousness? do beliefs even come from the brain? A belief is more than just mere thought, thoughts are just mental language, they let you know what you believe.  They are barometers of what is in your heart ( the metaphysical one ). My beliefs though seem to form my character and how i will respond in certin circumstances. A belief is not something that can be understood by mathematical language, you can brainwash someone but their are factors of will and conditioning involved. We are not automated beings.


And so on.





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4 years ago  ::  May 13, 2010 - 9:09PM #336
Blü
Posts: 24,670

Willie


NDEs aren't evidence of a soul.  Nor can Schwartz make them so.  The evidence says they're mental phenomena.  The clincher is that we have not one authenticated claim of anyone returning from an NDE or OBE with remote knowledge about reality that they didn't have before.


The 'self' is generated by brain function.  No brain, no self - very easy demonstration.


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  May 14, 2010 - 12:28AM #337
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,444

May 13, 2010 -- 9:09PM, Blü wrote:


Willie


NDEs aren't evidence of a soul.  Nor can Schwartz make them so.  The evidence says they're mental phenomena.  The clincher is that we have not one authenticated claim of anyone returning from an NDE or OBE with remote knowledge about reality that they didn't have before.


The 'self' is generated by brain function.  No brain, no self - very easy demonstration.


 


 



I don't think Gary E Schwartz book deals with NDEs but you should check out NDEs.com interesting stuff.

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4 years ago  ::  May 14, 2010 - 3:48AM #338
Blü
Posts: 24,670

Willie


I don't think Gary E Schwartz book deals with NDEs but you should  check out NDEs.com interesting stuff.


Thanks.  I've checked out NDEs and OBEs extensively.  All the research points to mental phenomena, none to body / soul dualism.


 

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4 years ago  ::  May 16, 2010 - 4:43PM #339
john
Posts: 14

May 11, 2010 -- 8:48PM, Blü wrote:


No, it's not still being debated in any relevant sense.  You'll find not a single article in any respected journal of science that suggests your identity is generated anywhere but in your brain.  If you disagree, refer us to the article.





You will not find in any respected journal of science how the brain generates consciousness. This argument can be used straight against you too. Also, the scientific community deals with natural phenomena (empirical evidence) so it makes no sense that you would even find the idea of a "soul" in any scientific journal.


And yes, the origin of consciousness and identity is still being debated in "relevant sense" in philosophy.


 

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4 years ago  ::  May 16, 2010 - 5:04PM #340
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,029

May 16, 2010 -- 4:43PM, john wrote:

You will not find in any respected journal of science how the brain generates consciousness. 


But you will find a bunch of amusing articles that think they are studying consciousness.  That is how science starts.  Find a hypothesis get it shot down from all over the map and start over.  Sooner or later the hypothesis will turn into a supported theory.  You can ignore the pot shots from believers on all sides of the issue. None of them know squat.  



Jcarlinbn, community moderator
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