Someone, if anyone bothers reading this, remind me, but aren't MOST mutations neutral? They neither increase nor decrease fitness in terms of breeding, so they just sort of float along in the population.
What % of mutations are neutral? 70%? 90%? ....51%? You made the claim now can you defend it?
Here ya go:
In ..."showByLink("l7052794",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052794")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Genetics">genetics
Genetics
Genetics , a discipline of biology, is the science of heredity and Genetic variation in living organisms. The fact that living things inherit traits from their parents has been used since prehistoric times to improve crop plants and animals through selective breeding.... , a neutral mutation is a mutation that occurs in an amino acid codon (presumably within an mRNA molecule) which results in the use of a different (but often chemically similar) ..."showByLink("l7052797",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052797")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Amino_acid">amino acid
Amino acid
In chemistry, an amino acid is a molecule containing both amine and carboxyl functional groups. These molecules are particularly important in biochemistry, where this term refers to alpha-amino acids with the general formula H2NCHRCOOH, where R is an organic substituent.... that has a negligible effect on ..."showByLink("l7052798",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052798")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Fitness_%28biology%29">fitness
Fitness (biology)
Fitness is a central concept in evolution. It describes the capability of an individual of certain genotype to reproduce, and usually is equal to the proportion of the individual's genes in all the genes of the next generation.... . This is similar to a ..."showByLink("l7052799",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052799")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Silent_mutation">silent mutation
Silent mutation
Silent mutations are DNA mutations that do not result in a change to the amino acid sequence of a protein. They may occur in a noncoding DNA , or they may occur within an exon in a manner that does not alter the final amino acid sequence.... , where a codon mutation may encode the same amino acid (see Wobble Hypothesis); for example, a change from AUU to AUC will still encode ..."showByLink("l7052801",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052801")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Leucine">leucine
Leucine
Leucine is an a-amino acid with the chemical formula HO2CCHCH2CH2. It is an essential amino acid, which means that humans cannot synthesise it.... , so no discernible change occurs (a ..."showByLink("l7052802",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052802")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Silent_mutation">silent mutation
Silent mutation
Silent mutations are DNA mutations that do not result in a change to the amino acid sequence of a protein. They may occur in a noncoding DNA , or they may occur within an exon in a manner that does not alter the final amino acid sequence.... ).
A neutral mutation may or may not affect the resulting protein. For example, if the codon AAA is mutated to AGA, ..."showByLink("l7052803",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052803")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Arginine">arginine
Arginine
Arginine is an a-amino acid. The Optical isomerism is one of the 20 most common natural amino acids. Its codons are CGU, CGC, CGA, CGG, AGA, and AGG.... would be used in the resulting protein instead of ..."showByLink("l7052804",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052804")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Lysine">lysine
Lysine
Lysine is an a-amino acid with the chemical formula HO2CCH4NH2. This amino acid is an essential amino acid, which means that humans cannot synthesize it.... . These amino acids are chemically very similar and may not have any appreciable effect on the protein or its function; alternately, a mutation may in fact be lethal, or prevent the protein from functioning correctly or at all (in this case, it would become a ..."showByLink("l7052805",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052805")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Missense_mutation">missense mutation
Missense mutation
In genetics, a missense mutation is a point mutation in which a single nucleotide is changed, resulting in a codon that codes for a different amino acid.... ).
If the mutation changes the original amino acid codon to a ..."showByLink("l7052806",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052806")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Stop_codon">stop codon
Stop codon
In the genetic code, a stop codon is a nucleotide triplet within messenger RNA that signals a termination of translation. Proteins are unique sequences of amino acids, and most codons in messenger RNA correspond to the addition of an amino acid to a growing protein chain — stop codons signal the termination of this process, releasing t... , it would be termed a ..."showByLink("l7052807",this)" onmouseout="hide("l7052807")" href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Nonsense_mutation">nonsense mutation
Nonsense mutation
In genetics, a nonsense mutation is a point mutation in a DNA sequence of DNA that results in a premature stop codon, or a nonsense codon in the transcription mRNA, and in a truncation, incomplete, and usually nonfunctional protein product.... . Among humans, roughly 95% of all mutations can be classified as neutral mutations, with roughly 5% being missense mutations. html_removed
Although the frequency and effects of neutral and nearly neutral mutations are critical to evolutionary patterns and processes governed by genetic drift, the small effects of such mutations make them difficult to study empirically. Here we present the results of a mutation-accumulation experiment designed to assess the frequencies of deleterious mutations with undetectable effects. We promoted the accumulation of spontaneous mutations by subjecting independent lineages of the RNA virus 6 to repeated population bottlenecks of a single individual. We measured fitness following every bottleneck to obtain a complete picture of the timing and effects of the accumulated mutations with detectable effects and sequenced complete genomes to determine the number of mutations that were undetected by the fitness assays. To estimate the effects of the undetected mutations, we implemented a likelihood model developed for quantitative trait locus (QTL) data (Otto and Jones 2000) to estimate the number and effects of the undetected mutations from the measured number and effects of the detected mutations. Using this method we estimated a deleterious mutation rate of U = 0.03 and a gamma effects distribution with mean and coefficient of variation = 0.204. Although our estimates of U and fall within the range of recent mutation rate and effect estimates in eukaryotes, the fraction of mutations with detectable effects on laboratory fitness (39%) appears to be far higher in 6 than in eukaryotes.
There ya go, 57. In black and white.
I don't believe it. Prove it to me and I still won't believe it.
~Any Creationist~ (But honestly Douglas Adams)
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
Yup. A lot of mutations are neutral. Some are 'bad' and then become 'good', either due to changed external circumstances or due to changes in other parts of the genome that interact with the formerly 'bad' mutation... or formerly 'neutral' ones, as well.
Do you have any examples?
Fair skin.
"I am the soul of nature that gives life to the universe."
Someone, if anyone bothers reading this, remind me, but aren't MOST mutations neutral? They neither increase nor decrease fitness in terms of breeding, so they just sort of float along in the population.
What % of mutations are neutral? 70%? 90%? ....51%? You made the claim now can you defend it?
Yup. A lot of mutations are neutral. Some are 'bad' and then become 'good', either due to changed external circumstances or due to changes in other parts of the genome that interact with the formerly 'bad' mutation... or formerly 'neutral' ones, as well.
First, in 57's defence - any species of plant or animal is ridiculously improbable. Obviously not impossible, but improbable to so many orders of magnitude that it would be considered virtually impossible for any such critter to exist.
2nd - That has nothing to do with Evolution! When 57 talks about the right mutations happening at just the right place and just the right time, he is making the mistake that many, even otherwise intelligent, people make - a god or nature is intentionally directing evolution to the existence of some specific creature or of some attribute. It isn't. It is true that evolution tends to fill similar niches with similar (to some extent) creatures. So we have kangaroos filling a niche in Australia that is filled by the white-tailed deer in the US. They are otherwise unrelated, but they are about the same size and herbivorous. Start from scratch, a new earth and the same self-replicating molecule and it would be amazing if ANY of the species alive today would evolve on that new earth. The probabilities are against it. But it appears that given that self-replicating molecule and an earth-like planet, it would be filled with life similar to, but unrelated to what we have. Mutations do add up, but they don't have to add up to anything that we are familiar with. Those mutations do not have to happen at just the right place and at just the right time, they only have to happen. Natural selection will take over from there. Starting anew, there is as much chance of ending up with dolphins with echolocation as there is with dolphins with binocular vision. Either of which would be an extremely improbable creature.
Yup. A lot of mutations are neutral. Some are 'bad' and then become 'good', either due to changed external circumstances or due to changes in other parts of the genome that interact with the formerly 'bad' mutation... or formerly 'neutral' ones, as well.
"I am the soul of nature that gives life to the universe."
Is it my imagination or has 57 posted the same broken 'mathematical argument' in at least three different threads? S/he seems to be suffering from a bad case of 'it has numbers so it must be true' or more accurately, "I'm spouting numbers fo you have to believe me".
It is NOT your imagination. Unfortunately, 57 remains as fact resistant and resolute as ever. No evolution there at all.
Something else I find intriguing is Karl's claim that mutations have to be "in the right place, at the right time' and that they must be "good" or "bad". It's almost like creationists have no grey in their crayon box.
What is it about the fact that evolution is a DYNAMIC process, where genes, mutations, and environs interact to create something that seems to befuddle them?
I mean, obviously "bad" mutations are bad. And the worst tend to be restricted to a very small percentage of any generation, and are quickly "weeded" from the population.
Why can't mutations exist...I'm not sure of the right language..."in potentia" as either "good or bad" until determined by circumstance, in the case of all mutations that don't automatically preclude an individual from entering the breeding population?
Like the yaks with thick coats? Could be good, might not be. /shrug. Sort of depends.
I honestly think the creationists of this board DO NOT GET IT!
It isn't a good/bad, red vs blue, black OR white sort of issue, in every case. Hell, I'm not sure it's black and white in most cases. And I'm not sure even the experts could tell you, due to the sheer number of genes and mutations that happen.
Someone, if anyone bothers reading this, remind me, but aren't MOST mutations neutral? They neither increase nor decrease fitness in terms of breeding, so they just sort of float along in the population.
So...What is so hard to understand about that?
I don't believe it. Prove it to me and I still won't believe it.
~Any Creationist~ (But honestly Douglas Adams)
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
Is it my imagination or has 57 posted the same broken 'mathematical argument' in at least three different threads? S/he seems to be suffering from a bad case of 'it has numbers so it must be true' or more accurately, "I'm spouting numbers fo you have to believe me".
I haven't seen you refute it DPM...you know, being the math guy that you are.
Is it my imagination or has 57 posted the same broken 'mathematical argument' in at least three different threads?
S/he seems to be suffering from a bad case of 'it has numbers so it must be true' or more accurately, "I'm spouting numbers fo you have to believe me".
"I am the soul of nature that gives life to the universe."
I think everyone is going to be disappointed considering Ida really isn't considered as a transitional by many scientist.
I'm not going to be disappointed. It's always nice to have another transitional, but we already have so many that one more or less won't make much difference.
Point out just 1 transitional...or retract.
Puijila darwini
"I am the soul of nature that gives life to the universe."
