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Switch to Forum Live View "FREE WILL" what is it really???
6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 7:45PM #31
Denisemac
Posts: 1,577

mountain_man wrote:

It seems no one can have a discussion with you without you whining about being attacked.:rolleyes:


obviously we can't. My bad

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 8:35PM #32
TransJ
Posts: 731
If for a moment we can ignore the problems of determinism, philosophical or theological. Think of humans as sufficiently autonomous beings, which are the source of their own compulsions.  Because of our finite and limited form determinism creeps in to limit or destroy our free will (self-compulsion). Of course an unlimited being has a totally free will. But the potential is realized even in our finite and limited state, we are aware of what free will is. To me free will is a divine attribute which we share with Deity, even in our limited form.

Ok that’s my rambling but it’s hard for me to think of humans without a free will.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 8:45PM #33
Denisemac
Posts: 1,577

TransJ wrote:

If for a moment we can ignore the problems of determinism, philosophical or theological. Think of humans as sufficiently autonomous beings, which are the source of their own compulsions.  Because of our finite and limited form determinism creeps in to limit or destroy our free will (self-compulsion). Of course an unlimited being has a totally free will. But the potential is realized even in our finite and limited state, we are aware of what free will is. To me free will is a divine attribute which we share with Deity, even in our limited form.

Ok that’s my rambling but it’s hard for me to think of humans without a free will.


ain't that the truth.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 9:37PM #34
Ken
Posts: 33,859

TransJ wrote:

To me free will is a divine attribute which we share with Deity, even in our limited form.


As I explained, it's just being able to do what you want to do.

Ok that’s my rambling but it’s hard for me to think of humans without a free will.


I'm sure there are many occasions when you can't do what you want to do. Free will comes and goes.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 11:27PM #35
mountain_man
Posts: 39,143

TransJ wrote:

If for a moment we can ignore the problems of determinism, philosophical or theological. Think of humans as sufficiently autonomous beings, which are the source of their own compulsions.  Because of our finite and limited form determinism creeps in to limit or destroy our free will (self-compulsion).


I thought you wanted to ignore the problems of determinism? If so, then how can you claim a belief that since we are limited in time, space, and form, that we cannot make a choice about which ice cream we are going to have that day? How do those limitations force me to choose vanilla?

Of course an unlimited being has a totally free will. But the potential is realized even in our finite and limited state, we are aware of what free will is. To me free will is a divine attribute which we share with Deity, even in our limited form.


Since gods do not exist, that point is moot.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 11:57PM #36
Omarkhayyam
Posts: 4,224
Just a a matter of simle fact:

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
This is OZ? I want back to KS.

What was it? Click your heels together 3 times and say - what??
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 1:08AM #37
mountain_man
Posts: 39,143

OmarKhayyam wrote:

Just a a matter of simle fact:

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."


Any one that had actually read the bible would know that. :cool:

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 9:24PM #38
1amazingwoman
Posts: 193

mountain_man wrote:

If a god is omniscient how could you do anything other than what it already knows? You have no choice but to do what it knows you will do.


What's to expand on? The main objection to free will is that you have influences in your life and choices. They claim those influences CAUSE you to act and making a free choice is beyond the capability of humans. If you go to the ice cream parlor and choose vanilla instead of peanut butter chocolate swirl it was because something in your past CAUSED, or forced, you to make that choice. I just say things influenced that decision.


No, like some kind of competition to see who can spout the most inane, meaningless, statements. The one with the most meaningless statement is the winner and gets to claim to the the most spiritual. I have no use for the term or the concept.


OK I agree with the omniscient part but the choice part...well yes i guess an omniscient god would know all that i do....but i still have a choice to do many different things. I get a lil protective when someone tells me I dont get to decide for myself or choose for myself. Must be the past experiences.

the second point...you start by saying the main objection to free will is the influences and choices. Who is the objection from? who are "they" forgive me if I am missing the obvious here. ok and then after that...
They say influences cause u to act? I dont agree...and free will choice is beyond the capability of humans?...no.
and the ice scream thing well....thats just weird...
Sooooo (sry I am getting there lol) u say that "things influenced it....out of curiousity in your opinion what kinds of "things" influence one like that?

and the third....you never use the word spiritual in reference to anything in your life? Do you ever use the word spirit?

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 9:51PM #39
1amazingwoman
Posts: 193

Don't_Be_Captious wrote:

Here is a recent thread on the Free Will Debate from elsewhere on BNet:

http://community.beliefnet.com/forums/s … hp?t=25175

In general I agree with what MountainMan said.  Or, as someone else around here used to put it:  "Determinism is what it looks like from the outside; free will is what it feels like from the inside."


So you are saying that determinism is truth for you?

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 10:02PM #40
mountain_man
Posts: 39,143

1amazingwoman wrote:

OK I agree with the omniscient part but the choice part...well yes i guess an omniscient god would know all that i do....but i still have a choice to do many different things. I get a lil protective when someone tells me I dont get to decide for myself or choose for myself. Must be the past experiences.


The god would already know our choice. You have no choice but to do what it already knows you will do. That's the problem with an omniscient god and free will. The god itself doesn't have free will either since it already knows what it will do.

the second point...you start by saying the main objection to free will is the influences and choices. Who is the objection from? who are "they" forgive me if I am missing the obvious here. ok and then after that...


"They" are those that argue for determination and against free will.

They say influences cause u to act? I dont agree...and free will choice is beyond the capability of humans?...no.


It's their argument, not mine.

and the ice scream thing well....thats just weird...
Sooooo (sry I am getting there lol) u say that "things influenced it....out of curiousity in your opinion what kinds of "things" influence one like that?


My preference for peanut butter and chocolate influenced my decision. It's not a cause though since sometimes I get mint chocolate swirl instead.

and the third....you never use the word spiritual in reference to anything in your life? Do you ever use the word spirit?


No. I have no need to use religious terminology for any part of my life. It's not a protest thing, the words just don't fit my life. Just because I do not use the word "spirit" doesn't mean that I lack the joie de vivre that makes life exciting, precious and full of wonder. Quite the opposite, I have an exciting life and I feel it's better without all that religious baggage.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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