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Switch to Forum Live View "FREE WILL" what is it really???
4 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2009 - 10:48PM #1
1amazingwoman
1amazingwoman
Posts: 193
I find that depending on God to “arrange my life for me” is only promoting within me a weak and spiritually deficient condition. As in "praying for gods will in my life"  This only brings about insecurity and an inability to learn to make my own healthy choices.
I am capable of making good healthy choices on my own just like God is.  So my goal is to be completely free, sovereign, independent, self-sufficient, powerful, and transcendent.
God is sovereign over God's own being and we do not think that is an evil attribute for God to have. So this is what I propose as “true free will.” It is the ability and right to choose your own spirituality for yourself. 

What is Free will to all of you out there?
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2009 - 11:50PM #2
mountain_man
mountain_man
Posts: 34,481

1amazingwoman wrote:

...What is Free will to all of you out there?


Free Will (with capital letters) is a religious concept.
free will (with lowercase letters) is a philosophical concept.

The religious Free Will is not compatible with an omniscient god.

The philosophical free will is just the ability to make decisions. Yes, of course, those decisions are influenced by past experiences, preferences, and so on, but those are influences, not causes.

I can't help you with the "spiritual" stuff since I find "spirituality" to be something that most people just show off to others. They try to out spiritual each other in a bizarre contest.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 12:25PM #3
1amazingwoman
1amazingwoman
Posts: 193
[/quote]
The religious Free Will is not compatible with an omniscient god.
*Can u explain why? please?

The philosophical free will is just the ability to make decisions. Yes, of course, those decisions are influenced by past experiences, preferences, and so on, but those are influences, not causes.
Ok influences not causes of the decisions? can u expand this a little?

They try to out spiritual each other in a bizarre contest
LOL interesting in your experiences like a carnival or something ???LOL
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 12:40PM #4
mountain_man
mountain_man
Posts: 34,481

1amazingwoman wrote:

"The religious Free Will is not compatible with an omniscient god."
*Can u explain why? please?


If a god is omniscient how could you do anything other than what it already knows? You have no choice but to do what it knows you will do.

The philosophical free will is just the ability to make decisions. Yes, of course, those decisions are influenced by past experiences, preferences, and so on, but those are influences, not causes.
Ok influences not causes of the decisions? can u expand this a little?


What's to expand on? The main objection to free will is that you have influences in your life and choices. They claim those influences CAUSE you to act and making a free choice is beyond the capability of humans. If you go to the ice cream parlor and choose vanilla instead of peanut butter chocolate swirl it was because something in your past CAUSED, or forced, you to make that choice. I just say things influenced that decision.

They try to out spiritual each other in a bizarre contest
LOL interesting in your experiences like a carnival or something ???LOL


No, like some kind of competition to see who can spout the most inane, meaningless, statements. The one with the most meaningless statement is the winner and gets to claim to the the most spiritual. I have no use for the term or the concept.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 12:57PM #5
Don't_Be_Captious
Don't_Be_Captious
Posts: 1,035
Here is a recent thread on the Free Will Debate from elsewhere on BNet:

http://community.beliefnet.com/forums/s … hp?t=25175

In general I agree with what MountainMan said.  Or, as someone else around here used to put it:  "Determinism is what it looks like from the outside; free will is what it feels like from the inside."

Religious free will & "secular" (or whatever-you-call-it) free will are generally 2 different things.  Religious free will is really corny & irrational; at bottom, it posits Dualism or some other "-ism" whereby a Spirit-Soup World exists that is completely apart from, yet still somehow interacts with, even completely controls, the physical world it is (somehow) completely separate from.

But, really, under serious philosophical scrutiny (like, say, from Kierkegaard's perspective or something), free will under either any religion, or religion-free, comes down to basically the same argument:  Determinism vs. Free Will.  "Determinism," under non-religion, is just matter/physics/history of the universe; under religion, it's God or Karma or whatever.  But the same basic problem for addressing, explaining, or explaining-away free will is really the same under either system.
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 1:02PM #6
Don't_Be_Captious
Don't_Be_Captious
Posts: 1,035
Suffice it to say, there's clearly a reason we all have a niggling, definite sense of "choice" and a sense of freedom & latitude to make choices in our minds.  It's put there as part-and-parcel of our overall consciousness, an attitude that helps us to survive & flourish.  To deny it, to try to maintain that we have no free will at all, is folly.  It's like being on a river & trying to deny that you're moving anywhere.  You need to act & react to you constantly-changing circumstances; imo denying free will is like denying you must adapt to your environment & circumstances.
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 1:02PM #7
Denisemac
Denisemac
Posts: 1,577

1amazingwoman wrote:

I find that depending on God to “arrange my life for me” is only promoting within me a weak and spiritually deficient condition. As in "praying for gods will in my life"  This only brings about insecurity and an inability to learn to make my own healthy choices.
I am capable of making good healthy choices on my own just like God is.  So my goal is to be completely free, sovereign, independent, self-sufficient, powerful, and transcendent.
God is sovereign over God's own being and we do not think that is an evil attribute for God to have. So this is what I propose as “true free will.” It is the ability and right to choose your own spirituality for yourself. 

What is Free will to all of you out there?


Free will to me is exactly that. As in the story of Adam and Eve eating the fruit of knowledge. Christians say that it was the first sin but if we read the story that G_d had given them free will to do as they wanted. We see this to be true in the fact that instead of G_d telling them that they were wrong when they stated "we are naked" he just clothed them. G_d does not spend his time fighting with us. And it is false to think that a  G_d controls us. He is here like a good parent to help us when we need it. He knows we can only learn and come to him on our own free will. Many think that just because G_d knows what we will do that means we do not have free will. He clearly stated to Adam and Eve what would happen if they ate of this fruit but they decided he was a liar. As in times past we have seen how the warnings that were given us what would happen. The ten commandments are nothing more then how to live a good life with love and care of others as yourself. We see how having sex outside of marriage has caused a lot of problems in our society. It is not a sin as religion teaches but it causes discord in our lives.

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 3:06PM #8
Ken
Ken
Posts: 33,860
Free will means being able to do what you want to do. It's the difference between "I went outdoors of my own free will" and "I went outdoors because the police dragged me out." That's all. Free will is not a permanent attribute. It depends entirely upon circumstances. When I can do what I want to do, I have it. When I can't, I don't. Moreover, free will is not the opposite of determinism. It doesn't depend upon how I came to want to do something. All that matters is that I want to do it and nothing prevents me from doing it. My desire to do it may have been completely determined from the moment of the Big Bang, but as long as I can act upon that desire my will is free.
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 3:09PM #9
Ken
Ken
Posts: 33,860

Denisemac wrote:

We see how having sex outside of marriage has caused a lot of problems in our society. It is not a sin as religion teaches but it causes discord in our lives.


Except when it doesn't. I've never had sex within marriage in my life, and I've never experienced the least discord because of it.

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 3:14PM #10
Denisemac
Denisemac
Posts: 1,577

Ken wrote:

Except when it doesn't. I've never had sex within marriage in my life, and I've never experienced the least discord because of it.


Do you always judge things according to what has happened to you? Or do you see the whole picture of society?

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