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6 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2008 - 11:47PM #1
rmba
Posts: 112
Frist, the Jesus family tomb, and now the Gabriel tablet. Whats next, his wallet and car keys? We need something positive, what hope do we have against the elitist when our Gods credibility is always questioned. Might just as well be the end, whats the differance.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 08, 2008 - 12:49AM #2
Somebodyelse
Posts: 517
[QUOTE=rmba;610577]Frist, the Jesus family tomb, and now the Gabriel tablet. Whats next, his wallet and car keys? We need something positive, what hope do we have against the elitist when our Gods credibility is always questioned. Might just as well be the end, whats the differance.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps we should be a little slow to leap to conclusions:

[QUOTE]Even assuming that the stone tablet (and the ink writing) are accepted as dating back to the first century B.C., scholars will likely struggle over how the scriptural fragments are pieced together. Perhaps the best way to firm up Knohl's textual interpretation is to find parallel texts elsewhere, as others have done with the Dead Sea Scrolls.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Scriptural scholars are abuzz over a stone tablet that is said to bear previously unknown prophecies about a Jewish messiah who would rise from the dead in three days. But there are far more questions than answers about the tablet, which some have suggested could represent "a new Dead Sea Scroll in stone."[/QUOTE]


http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ … 84950.aspx
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 08, 2008 - 6:07AM #3
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,096
I will transfer here all that is relevant to this subject, and was deleloped on thread The Nature of "Physical Reality:

[post #1293]: Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection, by Ethan Bronner, 07/06/2008, @ nytimes.com

[post #1296]: “By Three Days, Live”: Messiahs, Resurrection, and Ascent to Heaven in Hazon Gabriel (    © 2008 by The University of Chicago)

[post #1300]: If you cannot access the above by HOTLINK nor by copying and pasting the URL (ftp://80.179.136.36/site/Israel_Knoh...on_Gabriel.pdf), try to google with the string within < >:

<"Israel Knohl" "Hazon Gabriel" filetype:pdf>

You should see it as the first of 5 PDF files.

I also suggest to either check manually or to subscribe to the following google searches:



<"David Jeselsohn" "Ada Yardeni" "Binyamin Elitzur">

Mario
Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 08, 2008 - 7:13AM #4
rmba
Posts: 112
Sorry, bad day. Still, I feel the same. Humanity needs checks and balances, or the little guys just going to get walked all over on. Take God out of the equation and what chance do we have? Whos going to stop global warming, and everything else on the to do list?
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 08, 2008 - 1:51PM #5
Ken
Posts: 33,859
If we don't, nobody else will. Our chances may not be very good.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 08, 2008 - 2:04PM #6
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,096

Ken wrote:

If we don't, nobody else will. Our chances may not be very good.


Yep, we (not you and I personally, but ...) are too greedy, and we don't really care about what future we are preparing for the younger generations.

As ... ... said ...

Mario

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 09, 2008 - 4:11PM #7
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,096
This link ([COLOR=#3366ff]Dead Sea tablet 'casts doubt on death and resurrection of Jesus'[/COLOR] @ timesonline.co.uk) does not say anything new. But I was impressed at the number of comments that it attracted (they were ca. 30 this morning, now they are over 80!).
 
  So, I though I would analyze them (I considered the first 30) and see how they are subdivided.
 
  Herebelow are the results, based on my inevitably subjective and to some extant arbitrary criteria, and the individual comments.  The comments are numbered  from 30 (the most recent at 10:00 CET) to 1 (the first comment). I have interspersed few [NOTES].

MdS
 
  Partial Totals and Legenda
 
  1 x A: Agnostic (neither believer, nor unbeliever, without prejudice)
 
  1 x P: Prophetist (believer in the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”; Jesus was [at most] a Prophet – applies to [some] Jews and to [all] Muslims.
 
  12 x B: Believer (in the essential Christian belief of the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth)
 
  11 x U/G: Unbeliever/Generic (generically non believer in any religion, and in particular in the Resurrection of Jesus)
 
  1 x U/H: Unbeliever/Historicist (believer only in the historical existence of a man called Yehoshua of Nazareth, stripped of all the supernatural)
 
  2 x U/M: Unbeliever/Mythicist (believes that the figure of Jesus of Nazareth from the NT is fruit of a contamination of some Jewish sect, then mixed Jewish/Gentile, then predominantly Gentile, with various myths of the death and resurrection of a God/Saviour, e.g. Osiris, Tammuz, Attis, etc.)
 
  2 x X: Not classifiable

(30: SUM TOTAL OF COMMENTS EXAMINED)
 
  Comments (at 10:00 CET)
  30. A Jesus said he was fulfilling Jewish prophecy! In para 2 of the article we read "the tablet appears to refer to a Messiah" and in para 4 "the most controversial lines were indecipherable" - from which Professor Knohl concludes it is a "widely held messianic story."
  Janet, Solihull, England
 
  29. P Jesus was just a prophet, for God's sake!
  Eugene, heidelberg, germany
 
  28. U/M Overhype indeed. To have a god die and be resurrected in 3 days was common as rhubarb in pre Christian religions of the area. Osiris of Ancient Egypt comes to mind. Certainly it's in the Jewish mythos. Jesus motifs are not all original.
  Jilli Roberts, Hobart,  Australia
 
  27. U/G Christianity is a cult and, as such, resistant to proof, argumentation, reason. It is a form of collective insanity that inflicts a great deal of harm. Fortunately, science and reason are slowly culling the numbers who believe these fairy tales and it is now the preserve of the dribblingly mad
  Eric, London,
 
  26. U/G Bibliolaters will of course continue to deny the obvious truth.
Every one of the disparate books comprising what we call the Bible is a work of solely human authorship, and of human imagination.
They are not reliable sources of historical truth. Not one of them.

  tony peterson, kendal, UK
 
  25. X That's All Folks!
  Nigel Wroe, Doncaster, Yorkshire
 
  24. X If organized religion was to have any of its intended impact, the first thing to do would be to assemble the leaders of the world's 3 major faiths and have them agree that it's all the same god. [the world's 2 “major faiths” are Christianity and Islam; how can the 3rd major faith, Hinduism, agree to the same god?]
  RD, San Miguel de Allende, Mexico
 
  23. U/G If JC didn't rise from the dead and ascend into Heaven, then his body must have become part of the planet. “But rising/ascending shouldn't be taken literally; he ascended into Heaven in spirit."
Sure, sure. More fudge than a sweet shop. When I snap my fingers you will wake up and smell the coffee.

  Andrew Milner, Karuizawa,  Japan
 
  22. B Dave I have more reason to believe in Jesus existence than yours. [see #6]
  Glen, Johannesburg, RSA
 
  21. U/G Shock! Horror! Bible not true! Um, not exactly breaking news is it. But as they believe God provided dinosaur fossils to test the faithful I am sure this will have no effect on said faithful whatsoever, except to make them annoyed. Always entertaining that!
  martyn, calvia, spain
 
  20. B Am I confused! Jesus was a Jew. The New Testament is a Jewish narrative, itself written by Jews. I was born and raised a catholic in Australia. I have been taught and believe that Judaism is part of my identity in this 21st century. There is no missing link to Judaism. I am proof of that.
  lex, Brisbane, Australia
 
  (continued)
Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 09, 2008 - 4:11PM #8
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,096
(continuation)
 
  19. U/H Robert Hallsted - the reason the apostle were ready to die for it is the same reason Palestinian suicide bombers are ready to die for their own cause. I don't support either the apostles or the suicide bombers but people will do anything if they believe strongly enough in something. [see #17]
  Matt, Sydney, Australia
 
  18. U/G What next? "Scientists in 'dead man did not come to life' shocker!"

Fairy tales for the gullible and simple minded. Spend less time on God and more time on each other and the world would be a better place. Try that for morality instead of some list of outdated principles.

  Andy, Singapore,
 
  17. B Knohl has preconceived notion, see prior writings, of interpretation that undermines his objectivity. People believe what they want to without investigating. Let them read "The Evidence for the Resurrection*" J.N.D. Anderson. If it is a fiction how come apostles were ready to die for it? Look it up [see #19]
  Robert Hallsted, Middletown,  USA
 
  16. U/G Religion is a closed system that cannot be broken into from the outside - whenever a question like this is raised the answer is always the same, "God did it, so it's a mystery." This tablet is therefore of little practical significance to anyone's lives.
  Liam, Stoke, UK
 
  15. U/M All of the people putting in quotes from the Christian bible as some way of justifying their faith are missing the point badly.
The point being that Christian doctrine is based on mythology which was lifted from many other faiths. The Bible should not be used as a historical reference document.

  Howard, Tokyo,
 
  14. B The usual overhyped headline of which we expect better from the Times. Professor Knohl's reading of the tablet in no way "casts doubt on death and resurrection of Jesus." Further there is great controversy in academic circles whether the tablet, large sections of which are 'illegible', reads as Professor Knohl claims it does.
  EAG, Maritimes, Canada
 
  13. U/G To Paul Baratti et al, ..of course it changes nothing, because faith is blind and the blind can't see, so it pointless to try. [see #9 and #10]
  Fulvio, Sydney, Australia
 
  12. B Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH and the life...
  Ben, Geraldton, Australia
 
  11. U/G the bible is wonderful and mysterious but should never be taken seriously.
  robert, vancouver, bc
 
  10. B If you believe in Jesus, what he was, what he lived for then this changes nothing.
If you don't believe this changes nothing.

  Paul Baratti, San Diego Ca.,  USA
 
  9. B If some one were to tell me they had proof of the Resurrection or proof that it never occurred all I can say to them, and anyone who cares to listen is, "The difference between you and I is that you need proof to have faith and I have Faith without proof". After all isn't that what Faith truely is?
  Paul Baratti, San Diego Ca.,  USA
 
  8. B...we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
-The apostle Peter.
Jesus is real[,] people. In time everyone will know.

  Sean Mundy, Lexington,  KY., USA
 
  7. B 'destroy this temple (His body) and in three days i will raise it again' (His body). And so He did. For forty days after His resurrection many witnesses were in the company of the risen Christ and over 500 witnesses watched His ascension back to heaven.
  j brun, ballymena, ireland
 
  6. U/G Do people still believe that this Bible nonsence [sic] actually happened anyway?
  Dave, Bromley,
 
  5. B The OT often looks forward to Messiah and the NToften decribes the disciples' slow apprehension of Christ - Jesus.

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ. " Mark 8:29

This isn't new.

  Nathan, Maputo, Mozambique
 
  4. B Why don't we ever see headlines that read:

Holy Bible provides evidence on death and resurrection of Jesus'

A true Christian is not swayed by tablets and things written on the back of candy wrappers.

  Mark, Maidstone, UK
 
  3. U/G If you believe, as I do, that all ancient texts and inscriptions are man made and inspired then anything is possible including the very opposite of all the tenets of traditional religions
  bnrian woolf, pulborough, West Sussex,
 
  2. B Jesus quoting from the OT said:"For just as Jonah was three days and three nights.. so will the Son of Man be (Mt 38:40), Isaiah foretold of a suffering servant (53). So this tablet states nothing new. Jesus' followers did not adapt any story to Jesus, for Jesus said 'I am the resurection..'Jn 11:2.
  Chris, Cornwall,
 
  1. U/G Of course it is [fake]. The entire Bible is a collection of fables .
  Nigel Davies, Manchester,  England
Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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